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especially guest hosts again this week

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Paul Kimball and we have an interesting

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show about the relationship between

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science fiction and the paranormal that

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it could be kind of strange I have some

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strange stories to tell and I will a

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little bit later now in a previous

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episode Paul and I were talking about

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some of the old cases that never seem to

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die like Aztec I think the big question

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today Paul is are there any old cases

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may be other than Roswell that we should

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even bother about anymore isn't it time

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to let this dead be buried and go on

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with research over current events of all

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the old cases Roswell would be the one

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that I would let go actually I would

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flip your question on its side and say

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look all the old cases this is Roswell

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the one that we should just sort of say

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you know what enough is enough this has

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taken up far too much of our time and

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effort over the last 20 or 30 years

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can we not move on to more productive

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pursuits because we don't have an answer

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to Roswell and we never will one that

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will satisfy everybody so why don't we

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just say look you guys like Kevin

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Randall and Stan Friedman you think an

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alien spacecraft crashed there and

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you're convinced to that fine you go do

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your thing you guys like the lake Karl

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flock and Jim Mosely and many others

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you're convinced that it was project

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mogul okay that's fine you you do your

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thing you guys like Nick Redfern you

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have a different point of view a

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different theory that's great you do

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your thing and let's just all move on I

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wouldn't say don't look at all cases but

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I'm a historian Jean that was what my

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undergraduate degree was in so I have an

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in you know an innate fondness for

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history and I think you can learn things

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from history I think there are still a

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lot of cases out there that we can learn

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things from even if we do you know just

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patterns or things that we can put into

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perspective or to keep a historical

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perspective so that we don't repeat

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mistakes that maybe UFO researchers made

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20 30 40 50 years ago having said that

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there's also a place for new

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investigations of course for cases like

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Stephenville or the O'Hair case or any

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one of the number of cases that come up

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every year there's new cases over here

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in my film best evidence there was a

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case from 1996 which is a relatively

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recent vintage in the Yukon Territory in

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Canada it's very good case multiple

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witness

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multiple locations and it was

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investigated pretty well by a guy named

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Martin Jessica in British Columbia and

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others but he was the lead investigator

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we wrote a report about it now whatever

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you think that case was and you can

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google it on the Internet 1996 UFO yukon

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you'll probably find it and forge a six

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name in jas EK you'll be able to find it

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whatever you think that case was I mean

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there's an example of some good research

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he did it pretty much at the time the

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case happened and a report comes out of

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it well that's what we should do we

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should not throw away historical cases

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there's a lot we can learn from them

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there's a number of them that are still

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very interesting and unresolved but we

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should also continue and I think this is

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what you UFO research has kind of lost

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in the last few years last few decades

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maybe is to do what Hynek and others did

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investigate new cases and I think the

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500-pound gorilla in the room that has

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brought that to a screeching halt it's

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not something like the RB 47 cases 1957

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which almost nobody knows about or the

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Kelly Johnson case in 1953 or any of

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those cases all great cases it's Roswell

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Roswell and the crashed flying saucer

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mythos that it resurrected and then

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mj-12 and all of the conspiracy stuff

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that came out of that basically we're as

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well you know that's another point I

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wanted to bring up here it seems in UFO

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research people come in here and it's

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like 1950 all over again oh we can't

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figure it out it must be spaceships it's

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like repeating Donald Kehoe if you buy

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the book flying saucers from outer space

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by major Donald Kehoe a free download

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just google it it's a free download read

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that book and tell me we're not just

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repeating the same old stuff Kehoe

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brought with may be newer cases and you

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mention mj-12 now I know there's

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differing opinions here and in another

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week or two we'll be talking to Kevin

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Randle about another subject but he has

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said he doesn't believe in mj-12 whereas

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of course our friend Sam Friedman does

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you are against mj-12 well with all due

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respect to my my uncle Stan who I'm

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quite fond of and I have a great deal

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respect for but I think anybody who has

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taken

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took a look at the mj-12 documents and

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it's not looking for a way to find in

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them truth about Roswell would look at

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them and say at best and I mean at best

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they're unproven so let's put the myths

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and would say in his gray basket but no

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Stan goes around he asserts the validity

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of the original mj-12 documents and I

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there's just there's no way that you can

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say that I mean that when you go into

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the public beyond the sort of core group

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of UFO aficionados or enthusiasts who

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will believe anything that Stan says and

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any conclusions he comes to and there

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are there is that group that called

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light following that some ufologist have

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beyond that group you take that out to

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the average person in the street present

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the evidence of the mj-12 case the first

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question out of their mouth will be well

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what's the provenance of the documents

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where do they come from well we don't

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know okay move on how do they get

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discovered whoa someone sent a film copy

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to a third party just suddenly sends the

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film not original documents not

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photocopies of film and eventually let's

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call it deep throat let's assume the

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documents are real and let's assume that

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there was somebody who what would it be

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now almost 30 years say 25 27 years ago

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would have sent those documents to Jamie

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Shan Dre and Bill Moore two interesting

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characters but let's say they're real

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and let's say somebody sent them well

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you know eventually the deep throat came

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forward and said hey I was the guy

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behind deep throat in the Watergate

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thing one of Stan's

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sort of favorite things one of the

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favorite things that a lot of people say

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is governments can't keep secrets sooner

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or later this stuff will come out it's

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what drives the disclosure moves made up

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sooner or later this will come out well

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I would say the same thing about the

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mj-12 documents if they're real

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sooner or later the person who put them

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out there like what is he hiding from

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anymore the government has declared that

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these documents the FBI is it declared

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the documents are fraudulent so why not

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step wardens and say hey no I'm the guy

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who did it here's where I got them from

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and I can I can tell you exactly why

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these documents are real but nobody

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stepped forward to do that Paul it was a

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complication here and that might be

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security I mean we learn now that like

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Paul Harvey who died what close to 90

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years old

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famous American radio newscaster that he

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did spying back in World War two but it

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took what 60 70 years before we learned

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about it true but we know who these you

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know the documents are out there in the

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public domain I mean people like Stan

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have written books about them we've

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talked about them everybody's talked

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about them on the radio

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it's not like it's new material so if

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you really do have the truth if you are

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the guy who brought those documents for

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it if you if the real and you sent them

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to shandur anymore

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step forward and say hey I'm the guy and

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what are you gonna do

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I mean seriously what's the government

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gonna do at that point prosecute Stan I

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did an interview with him once for film

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and Stan said look I used to drive

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around with those documents I'd cross

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state lines and all that sort of stuff

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and he said I always hoped that somebody

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would pull me over or you know the

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police would arrest me or something for

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carrying these documents but they never

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did and to which I would say well yeah

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there's probably a perfectly good reason

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why they never did you can't charge

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somebody with carrying fraudulent

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documents for pete's sake but if they're

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real let the person who sent them to

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shandur a and more come forward and say

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look I'm the guy here's where I got him

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from and here's the real story but that

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person's never come forward in 20-some

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odd years and I can't see any logical

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reason for that anymore because the

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documents isn't out there so long I'll

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see the joke in there there's a joke in

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there because one of the members of this

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alleged mj-12 panel is none other than

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astronomer Donald Menzel a notice

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Fortius UFO skeptic and of course

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they'll say well he had security

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background and he worked in intelligence

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no sure so there's many scientists of

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his era

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of his vintage but on the other hand I

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saw him on a TV show with John fuller

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many many years ago TV show on NBC in

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America called open mind and he was

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asked some questions about UFOs and the

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guy had like a physical meltdown on the

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screen and you saw this person looking

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like an old man who was confused and he

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was befuddled and if he was this crack

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security intelligence guy he would have

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had a response he was just a guy who

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didn't believe it and that was it well I

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would say if Donald Menzel really was a

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member of an organization like mj-12

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he was you know forget Brad Pitt or

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George Clooney just award all future

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Oscars to Donald Menzel for everything

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any award for any acting anywhere give

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it to Donald Menzel because nothing in

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his record nothing in his public

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statements and his writings nothing in

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anything would indicate that he was

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anything other than what he appeared

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which was a vehement one my tall almost

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a rabid debunker of the UFO phenomenon

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of a cut of a kind that not even fill

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class approached even on his worst

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moments I mean Menzel set the template

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for debunking the UFO phenomenon and

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young people might say well okay that

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was the job he was given with mj-12 and

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I would say well how stupid were these

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people if they were actually gonna

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debunk the UFO phenomena and you

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wouldn't do it in such a ham-fisted way

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in an easily refutable way as Donald

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Menzel went out there and do it I mean

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the government's a little more

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sophisticated so you can't have it both

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ways you can't say that the government

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is capable of Maine maintaining this

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vast cover-up for 60 years and I think

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these people involved in doing it in a

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00:10:23,980 --> 00:10:22,130
very sophisticated way and somehow it

272
00:10:26,530 --> 00:10:23,990
never really gets out there but at the

273
00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:26,540
same time they're complete idiots so

274
00:10:30,430 --> 00:10:28,010
they put a goth light pencil out there

275
00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:30,440
and he sounds like he's even to other

276
00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:33,050
debunkers Menzel sounds like he was a

277
00:10:36,490 --> 00:10:34,850
bit off his rocker and you know they

278
00:10:37,930 --> 00:10:36,500
would shy away from them and say Donald

279
00:10:40,720 --> 00:10:37,940
you're you know you're kind of going too

280
00:10:41,590 --> 00:10:40,730
far here so it's just none of nunavut

281
00:10:43,420 --> 00:10:41,600
about mj-12

282
00:10:45,130 --> 00:10:43,430
adds up it makes sense but here here's

283
00:10:46,780 --> 00:10:45,140
here's the one-time offer from Paul

284
00:10:49,630 --> 00:10:46,790
Kimball the Sam Friedman and everybody

285
00:10:51,790 --> 00:10:49,640
else who believes in mj-12 I will agree

286
00:10:54,610 --> 00:10:51,800
even though I don't really I will agree

287
00:10:56,980 --> 00:10:54,620
publicly that maybe MJ 12 is real if you

288
00:10:59,440 --> 00:10:56,990
can agree publicly that maybe MJ 12

289
00:11:01,810 --> 00:10:59,450
isn't real and then let's all agree that

290
00:11:03,670 --> 00:11:01,820
maybe it's real maybe it's not put it in

291
00:11:03,970 --> 00:11:03,680
the grey basket and stop talking about

292
00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:03,980
it

293
00:11:12,370 --> 00:11:10,130
cases that don't get the time of day

294
00:11:14,830 --> 00:11:12,380
instead of sand when you do your

295
00:11:17,920 --> 00:11:14,840
lectures spending 30 40 50 60 minutes

296
00:11:19,990 --> 00:11:17,930
talking about Roswell ad infinitum why

297
00:11:22,540 --> 00:11:20,000
don't you spend that time talking about

298
00:11:25,300 --> 00:11:22,550
the army 47 case the Kelly Johnson case

299
00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:25,310
the 1976 Tehran case with the jet

300
00:11:30,210 --> 00:11:28,490
fighters over over Iran take the UConn

301
00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:30,220
case from 1996

302
00:11:35,100 --> 00:11:33,490
talk about those cases and say there's

303
00:11:37,380 --> 00:11:35,110
more than just Roswell let's leave

304
00:11:39,630 --> 00:11:37,390
Roswell and mj-12 aside let's just talk

305
00:11:42,030 --> 00:11:39,640
about the UFO phenomenon to people let's

306
00:11:45,420 --> 00:11:42,040
take the opportunity to reintroduce

307
00:11:48,750 --> 00:11:45,430
people to the UFO phenomenon that Hynek

308
00:11:51,900 --> 00:11:48,760
and Jim McDonald's knew back in the 60s

309
00:11:53,880 --> 00:11:51,910
and 70s before it was contaminated by

310
00:11:55,620 --> 00:11:53,890
crashed flying saucers and conspiracies

311
00:11:57,300 --> 00:11:55,630
and alien abductions and all the stuff

312
00:11:59,850 --> 00:11:57,310
that came out starting in really the

313
00:12:02,130 --> 00:11:59,860
late 1970s that has just dragged it down

314
00:12:04,050 --> 00:12:02,140
ever since and the thing is here is

315
00:12:06,090 --> 00:12:04,060
nowadays we think the government is

316
00:12:08,280 --> 00:12:06,100
totally incompetent I mean you look at

317
00:12:10,740 --> 00:12:08,290
what's happening in Washington in the

318
00:12:12,870 --> 00:12:10,750
United States where nobody believes

319
00:12:14,220 --> 00:12:12,880
Republicans nobody believes Democrats

320
00:12:15,840 --> 00:12:14,230
they're all idiots they're all

321
00:12:17,520 --> 00:12:15,850
incompetent the government can't do

322
00:12:20,310 --> 00:12:17,530
anything right but they can sure hide

323
00:12:23,700 --> 00:12:20,320
the truth about UFOs hey we're going to

324
00:12:25,350 --> 00:12:23,710
talk about UFOs and science fiction to

325
00:12:28,320 --> 00:12:25,360
subjects that don't always get together

326
00:12:30,330 --> 00:12:28,330
and don't always work well together

327
00:12:32,070 --> 00:12:30,340
you've got a really interesting couple

328
00:12:34,500 --> 00:12:32,080
of guests for us today tell us about

329
00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:34,510
them sure my very very good friend Nick

330
00:12:39,690 --> 00:12:37,450
Redfern who is part of the challengers

331
00:12:41,820 --> 00:12:39,700
of the unknown as I call us Nick Greg

332
00:12:43,560 --> 00:12:41,830
Bishop myself and the laid-back Tony's

333
00:12:46,380 --> 00:12:43,570
some other people have called us the

334
00:12:49,110 --> 00:12:46,390
Cabal it's you know we don't really hang

335
00:12:51,660 --> 00:12:49,120
out like that but dies but he doesn't

336
00:12:53,520 --> 00:12:51,670
die it's like in the Simpsons with

337
00:12:55,140 --> 00:12:53,530
Montgomery burns and Count Dracula and

338
00:12:56,820 --> 00:12:55,150
Kaiser bill Hemington second or whatever

339
00:12:59,150 --> 00:12:56,830
that's what we do secretly running the

340
00:13:01,800 --> 00:12:59,160
world but yeah Nick's got a book out

341
00:13:02,940 --> 00:13:01,810
well Nick's got a zillion books out but

342
00:13:04,500 --> 00:13:02,950
he has one called science fiction

343
00:13:06,780 --> 00:13:04,510
secrets from government files and the

344
00:13:08,220 --> 00:13:06,790
paranormal and basically he talks about

345
00:13:09,960 --> 00:13:08,230
how the relationship between the

346
00:13:12,660 --> 00:13:09,970
paranormal and science fiction in the

347
00:13:14,370 --> 00:13:12,670
real world so Nick who is always a great

348
00:13:17,010 --> 00:13:14,380
guest he's one of them and paul davids

349
00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:17,020
who is among other things the producer

350
00:13:21,810 --> 00:13:19,810
of the Showtime movie I think it was

351
00:13:23,670 --> 00:13:21,820
Showtime on Roswell the head comic

352
00:13:25,140 --> 00:13:23,680
Lachlan and Martin Sheen many years ago

353
00:13:27,180 --> 00:13:25,150
Paul is a Hollywood producer writer

354
00:13:28,980 --> 00:13:27,190
director a number of films many of which

355
00:13:31,260 --> 00:13:28,990
don't have to do with the paranormal but

356
00:13:33,450 --> 00:13:31,270
he he's also written a number of books

357
00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:33,460
for the Lucas franchise I think Star

358
00:13:39,540 --> 00:13:36,370
Wars he is very well versed in science

359
00:13:42,180 --> 00:13:39,550
fiction and he did a film a very good

360
00:13:43,449 --> 00:13:42,190
film called the sci-fi boys which with

361
00:13:45,340 --> 00:13:43,459
interviews with Peter

362
00:13:47,769 --> 00:13:45,350
Jackson George Lucas Steven Spielberg

363
00:13:49,960 --> 00:13:47,779
Ray Bradbury which basically talks about

364
00:13:52,210 --> 00:13:49,970
science fiction and the history thereof

365
00:13:54,699 --> 00:13:52,220
and it was the winner of the 2007

366
00:13:55,989 --> 00:13:54,709
Hollywood Saturn Award for best DVD from

367
00:13:58,329 --> 00:13:55,999
the Academy of science fiction fantasy

368
00:13:59,829 --> 00:13:58,339
and horror so we've got two guys to know

369
00:14:01,569 --> 00:13:59,839
their science fiction and we've got two

370
00:14:03,879 --> 00:14:01,579
guys to know their paranormal and two

371
00:14:06,009 --> 00:14:03,889
guys by the way who disagree on what

372
00:14:07,780 --> 00:14:06,019
Roswell was and having just said that we

373
00:14:09,759 --> 00:14:07,790
shouldn't talk anymore about Roswell

374
00:14:12,189 --> 00:14:09,769
we've brought two guys in and we should

375
00:14:14,859 --> 00:14:12,199
talk to them about Roswell so saucers

376
00:14:19,030 --> 00:14:14,869
the paranormal in science fiction next

377
00:14:20,829 --> 00:14:19,040
up on the para cast hi this is Tamar

378
00:14:22,780 --> 00:14:20,839
from new cheese we're a domain name and

379
00:14:24,639 --> 00:14:22,790
web hosting company and we really care

380
00:14:27,249 --> 00:14:24,649
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purchases Namecheap offers free SSL and

382
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383
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384
00:14:34,869 --> 00:14:32,990
bother you with unwanted messaging in

385
00:14:36,669 --> 00:14:34,879
your inbox or upon checkout but most

386
00:14:38,619 --> 00:14:36,679
importantly we care about you our

387
00:14:40,809 --> 00:14:38,629
customers your satisfaction and

388
00:14:42,699 --> 00:14:40,819
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389
00:14:44,559 --> 00:14:42,709
your support means so much to us if

390
00:14:47,049 --> 00:14:44,569
you'd like to learn more please visit us

391
00:14:49,359 --> 00:14:47,059
at radio name chief comm for web hosting

392
00:14:50,619 --> 00:14:49,369
and domain name specials you can also

393
00:14:56,199 --> 00:14:50,629
follow us on twitter at

394
00:14:58,299 --> 00:14:56,209
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395
00:15:03,759 --> 00:14:58,309
facebook.com slash Namecheap see you

396
00:15:05,199 --> 00:15:03,769
online we want to hear from you if you

397
00:15:08,410 --> 00:15:05,209
have a comment or question about the

398
00:15:11,949 --> 00:15:08,420
pair cast send it to news at the podcast

399
00:15:14,139 --> 00:15:11,959
calm that's news at the pear cast calm

400
00:15:15,579 --> 00:15:14,149
and don't forget to visit our forums

401
00:15:18,340 --> 00:15:15,589
where you can talk to fellow listeners

402
00:15:20,559 --> 00:15:18,350
just go to the pear cast comm and click

403
00:15:32,290 --> 00:15:20,569
on the forum links that's the forum

404
00:15:40,270 --> 00:15:35,540
you're in the para castle you never know

405
00:15:46,510 --> 00:15:44,510
my earliest encounter with the as they

406
00:15:48,980 --> 00:15:46,520
say dysfunctional relationship between

407
00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:48,990
science fiction and UFOs goes actually

408
00:15:53,570 --> 00:15:51,690
back to the 50s and 60s where there was

409
00:15:56,300 --> 00:15:53,580
an organization called civilian saucer

410
00:15:58,370 --> 00:15:56,310
intelligence of New York CSI before

411
00:16:01,760 --> 00:15:58,380
there was a CSI TV show one of the

412
00:16:03,650 --> 00:16:01,770
really pioneer UFO organizations that

413
00:16:05,780 --> 00:16:03,660
tried to develop some kind of friendship

414
00:16:08,630 --> 00:16:05,790
with the science fiction community and

415
00:16:10,370 --> 00:16:08,640
they were basically staunchly rejected

416
00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:10,380
because the science fiction people

417
00:16:14,630 --> 00:16:12,570
didn't want to hear about UFOs this was

418
00:16:17,060 --> 00:16:14,640
nonsense we don't want to associate with

419
00:16:19,370 --> 00:16:17,070
those people I tried that with a small

420
00:16:21,470 --> 00:16:19,380
magazine in the 1960s when I was very

421
00:16:23,540 --> 00:16:21,480
very very young that I say I was young

422
00:16:25,490 --> 00:16:23,550
very young now mold as the hills but

423
00:16:28,550 --> 00:16:25,500
when I was very young I tried the same

424
00:16:30,770 --> 00:16:28,560
thing and it didn't work but we noticed

425
00:16:32,630 --> 00:16:30,780
and obviously a lot of people who were

426
00:16:36,050 --> 00:16:32,640
involved in UFO and paranormal studies

427
00:16:38,900 --> 00:16:36,060
are also very much involved in science

428
00:16:41,690 --> 00:16:38,910
fiction one way or the other now paul

429
00:16:44,660 --> 00:16:41,700
davids as someone who has lived in both

430
00:16:46,370 --> 00:16:44,670
worlds somewhat because of your interest

431
00:16:50,030 --> 00:16:46,380
in UFOs and because of the films that

432
00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:50,040
you've done why is it that sci-fi and

433
00:16:56,810 --> 00:16:53,490
UFOs don't like each other well I think

434
00:17:00,740 --> 00:16:56,820
Syfy came first for a lot of people who

435
00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:00,750
are interested in space other worlds

436
00:17:06,590 --> 00:17:03,290
undreamed-of possibilities from

437
00:17:10,420 --> 00:17:06,600
childhood came the interest in science

438
00:17:14,420 --> 00:17:10,430
fiction and along the way some people

439
00:17:17,210 --> 00:17:14,430
had experiences or read books or

440
00:17:19,370 --> 00:17:17,220
accounts or reports that made them feel

441
00:17:22,010 --> 00:17:19,380
that there was a lot more to some of

442
00:17:24,560 --> 00:17:22,020
this than fiction but the a lot of the

443
00:17:27,590 --> 00:17:24,570
conventional professionals no authors

444
00:17:29,930 --> 00:17:27,600
like Isaac Asimov let's say has one

445
00:17:33,590 --> 00:17:29,940
example even Ray Bradbury

446
00:17:35,030 --> 00:17:33,600
they they don't believe in in the

447
00:17:37,820 --> 00:17:35,040
reality of this stuff because they think

448
00:17:39,120 --> 00:17:37,830
that they or people like them made it up

449
00:17:41,620 --> 00:17:39,130
first

450
00:17:43,810 --> 00:17:41,630
claimed that it was real so there's no

451
00:17:45,700 --> 00:17:43,820
UFO unless they wrote about it it's an

452
00:17:48,669 --> 00:17:45,710
ego thing yeah yeah

453
00:17:50,650 --> 00:17:48,679
if they haven't seen it and they didn't

454
00:17:53,919 --> 00:17:50,660
think it up you know some of them feel

455
00:17:55,659 --> 00:17:53,929
that it couldn't be true because the

456
00:17:58,720 --> 00:17:55,669
government would have told them and then

457
00:18:00,940 --> 00:17:58,730
Ray Bradbury I sat next to it at lunch

458
00:18:03,730 --> 00:18:00,950
one day the day that Ray Harryhausen got

459
00:18:07,090 --> 00:18:03,740
his star on Hollywood Boulevard

460
00:18:10,060 --> 00:18:07,100
and the Ray Bradbury chewed me out for

461
00:18:12,850 --> 00:18:10,070
having been a guy behind the movie

462
00:18:15,610 --> 00:18:12,860
Roswell which gave a take on the Roswell

463
00:18:18,220 --> 00:18:15,620
case which gave aid and comfort to those

464
00:18:21,220 --> 00:18:18,230
who feel that it was flying saucer with

465
00:18:23,169 --> 00:18:21,230
aliens and Ray Bradbury said to me you

466
00:18:25,360 --> 00:18:23,179
know you shouldn't be you shouldn't be

467
00:18:27,430 --> 00:18:25,370
backing that kind of nonsense and I said

468
00:18:29,590 --> 00:18:27,440
what what was like I said and come again

469
00:18:31,270 --> 00:18:29,600
you know have you talked to the

470
00:18:33,760 --> 00:18:31,280
witnesses have you studied the reports

471
00:18:35,789 --> 00:18:33,770
have you looked into the case and his

472
00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:35,799
answer was essentially I don't have to

473
00:18:40,029 --> 00:18:37,250
doesn't matter

474
00:18:43,029 --> 00:18:40,039
can't exist didn't happen because if it

475
00:18:45,130 --> 00:18:43,039
did they would have told me because I'm

476
00:18:49,870 --> 00:18:45,140
Ray Bradbury so there you have it

477
00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:49,880
Wow that's level of ego that you often

478
00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:52,730
hear sort of leveled at scientists

479
00:18:56,470 --> 00:18:55,250
people saying that well why doesn't why

480
00:18:58,060 --> 00:18:56,480
does science for good science fiction

481
00:19:00,730 --> 00:18:58,070
wide science have a tenuous relationship

482
00:19:02,350 --> 00:19:00,740
at best with the UFO phenomenon but what

483
00:19:03,940 --> 00:19:02,360
you're saying Paul is that science

484
00:19:06,940 --> 00:19:03,950
fiction authors are just as bad if not

485
00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:06,950
worse when it comes to the ego thing

486
00:19:12,669 --> 00:19:09,530
than say your average scientists well

487
00:19:16,120 --> 00:19:12,679
and also you you mentioned before we

488
00:19:20,049 --> 00:19:16,130
started this tape recording that Forrest

489
00:19:21,669 --> 00:19:20,059
J Ackerman is one person in the science

490
00:19:24,700 --> 00:19:21,679
fiction field that you've been familiar

491
00:19:27,190 --> 00:19:24,710
with for for many years and it's a very

492
00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:27,200
very famous name in science fiction and

493
00:19:33,360 --> 00:19:29,450
I was very close to Fareed Ackerman I

494
00:19:36,549 --> 00:19:33,370
met him when I was 13 years old and I

495
00:19:39,640 --> 00:19:36,559
was close to him right up to the time of

496
00:19:41,860 --> 00:19:39,650
his death at age 92 a little over a year

497
00:19:45,909 --> 00:19:41,870
ago and this was one area of

498
00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:45,919
disagreement between sorry Ackerman and

499
00:19:51,930 --> 00:19:48,530
myself he did not believe that flying

500
00:19:54,360 --> 00:19:51,940
saucers exist it wouldn't go there

501
00:19:57,139 --> 00:19:54,370
he loved it a science fiction he felt it

502
00:19:59,820 --> 00:19:57,149
was all invention science fiction and

503
00:20:01,830 --> 00:19:59,830
I'm not aware that he'd studied any of

504
00:20:04,730 --> 00:20:01,840
the reports that he read any of the

505
00:20:08,310 --> 00:20:04,740
books that give credibility to the field

506
00:20:10,830 --> 00:20:08,320
certainly never came across Richard

507
00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:10,840
Dolan's UFOs in the national security

508
00:20:15,779 --> 00:20:13,090
state you know which the first volume

509
00:20:17,779 --> 00:20:15,789
was out before he passed away but he had

510
00:20:19,830 --> 00:20:17,789
some very firm ideas on a lot of

511
00:20:21,690 --> 00:20:19,840
subjects where he wouldn't budge

512
00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:21,700
you know I mean he was an atheist he was

513
00:20:26,909 --> 00:20:24,490
proud to be an atheist in the hour of

514
00:20:29,129 --> 00:20:26,919
his death you know he he didn't believe

515
00:20:31,799 --> 00:20:29,139
in ghosts he didn't believe in the

516
00:20:33,690 --> 00:20:31,809
paranormal and we just agreed to

517
00:20:36,419 --> 00:20:33,700
disagree you know I mean we were friends

518
00:20:38,639 --> 00:20:36,429
anyway but I was a skeptic on the matter

519
00:20:40,980 --> 00:20:38,649
of UFOs up until I saw one in broad

520
00:20:44,690 --> 00:20:40,990
daylight in 1987 with my two children

521
00:20:46,889 --> 00:20:44,700
and it got worse from there

522
00:20:49,350 --> 00:20:46,899
because then some paranormal things

523
00:20:51,090 --> 00:20:49,360
happen to me in my life that you know it

524
00:20:54,539 --> 00:20:51,100
just couldn't be explained and I you

525
00:20:56,820 --> 00:20:54,549
know I try to be very rational logical

526
00:20:58,289 --> 00:20:56,830
I've been a skeptic all the way up to

527
00:21:01,139 --> 00:20:58,299
that point and then things started to

528
00:21:03,330 --> 00:21:01,149
happen that you know changed my way of

529
00:21:05,730 --> 00:21:03,340
thinking if those things don't come

530
00:21:07,259 --> 00:21:05,740
along for you you know you never make a

531
00:21:10,169 --> 00:21:07,269
transition from science fiction

532
00:21:13,619 --> 00:21:10,179
interests to the interest that people

533
00:21:16,409 --> 00:21:13,629
like Nick Redfern has who's written so

534
00:21:18,060 --> 00:21:16,419
many books about the flying saucer

535
00:21:20,580 --> 00:21:18,070
phenomenon and trying to get at the

536
00:21:22,350 --> 00:21:20,590
bottom of what we can believe what we

537
00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:22,360
should believe and what we definitely

538
00:21:27,649 --> 00:21:24,970
shouldn't believe so it's a different

539
00:21:30,570 --> 00:21:27,659
kind of different kind of person who

540
00:21:33,060 --> 00:21:30,580
investigates inquires and has an open

541
00:21:35,310 --> 00:21:33,070
enough mind to think that it could be

542
00:21:38,100 --> 00:21:35,320
true versus those who dwell in the realm

543
00:21:40,950 --> 00:21:38,110
of fiction are their legs fall between

544
00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:40,960
and moving more into the science fiction

545
00:21:44,970 --> 00:21:43,450
now though have science fiction authors

546
00:21:46,860 --> 00:21:44,980
maybe we can talk a bit about science

547
00:21:48,659 --> 00:21:46,870
fiction authors and filmmakers and how

548
00:21:50,820 --> 00:21:48,669
they've even if they don't necessarily

549
00:21:53,580 --> 00:21:50,830
believe in the UFO phenomenon how

550
00:21:56,100 --> 00:21:53,590
they've taken information from the UFO

551
00:21:57,810 --> 00:21:56,110
phenomenon and turned it into works of

552
00:21:59,850 --> 00:21:57,820
fiction that they've put out there I

553
00:22:01,560 --> 00:21:59,860
mean the most obvious example to me at

554
00:22:02,530 --> 00:22:01,570
least off the top of my head is Close

555
00:22:05,410 --> 00:22:02,540
Encounters to the

556
00:22:07,510 --> 00:22:05,420
kind where you literally like white but

557
00:22:11,380 --> 00:22:07,520
Steven but Steven Spielberg is on record

558
00:22:13,510 --> 00:22:11,390
that he does believe in aliens somebody

559
00:22:16,180 --> 00:22:13,520
else and I want to go back to the 1950s

560
00:22:17,710 --> 00:22:16,190
and mention Robert Wise who directed the

561
00:22:19,510 --> 00:22:17,720
original of The Day the Earth Stood

562
00:22:21,460 --> 00:22:19,520
Still and by the way ladies and

563
00:22:24,310 --> 00:22:21,470
gentlemen please I'm sure now if you

564
00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:24,320
will disagree avoid the Keanu Reeves

565
00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:26,930
remake please we're talking about the

566
00:22:30,460 --> 00:22:28,850
original black and white version I know

567
00:22:33,780 --> 00:22:30,470
we are I know we are in Robert Wise

568
00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:33,790
believe in us sure after I had my

569
00:22:39,910 --> 00:22:37,610
daylight disc sighting in 1987 I talked

570
00:22:41,650 --> 00:22:39,920
to a lot of different people trying to

571
00:22:43,330 --> 00:22:41,660
figure out what it was what had happened

572
00:22:45,790 --> 00:22:43,340
what did I say what should I believe

573
00:22:47,620 --> 00:22:45,800
about it and Robert Wise was one of

574
00:22:50,650 --> 00:22:47,630
those I spoke to because I had the

575
00:22:52,990 --> 00:22:50,660
opportunity to meet with him and we had

576
00:22:56,320 --> 00:22:53,000
a conversation at length about the

577
00:22:58,870 --> 00:22:56,330
subject and he said that he had accepted

578
00:23:01,120 --> 00:22:58,880
that the UFOs were real and that some of

579
00:23:02,470 --> 00:23:01,130
them were extraterrestrials act since

580
00:23:05,380 --> 00:23:02,480
the days that he was making the film

581
00:23:08,230 --> 00:23:05,390
when he started to make the film he

582
00:23:10,030 --> 00:23:08,240
didn't necessarily believe that but

583
00:23:12,180 --> 00:23:10,040
during the course of making it he said

584
00:23:16,090 --> 00:23:12,190
that so many really credible people

585
00:23:18,790 --> 00:23:16,100
scientists engineers came to him with

586
00:23:22,420 --> 00:23:18,800
stories with accounts with reports and

587
00:23:24,790 --> 00:23:22,430
he became completely convinced but he

588
00:23:28,090 --> 00:23:24,800
said in the same breath that he couldn't

589
00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:28,100
understand why the government wasn't

590
00:23:34,690 --> 00:23:30,890
disclosing if it was true and he felt

591
00:23:37,900 --> 00:23:34,700
that that was a stupid policy if that

592
00:23:39,910 --> 00:23:37,910
was fact so there's someone who went

593
00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:39,920
from science fiction and then just

594
00:23:43,890 --> 00:23:41,930
because of the quality of the number of

595
00:23:47,740 --> 00:23:43,900
people that came to him with information

596
00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:47,750
he became completely persuaded even

597
00:23:51,790 --> 00:23:49,250
though it wasn't as a result of his own

598
00:23:54,130 --> 00:23:51,800
direct experience now let's bring the

599
00:23:55,780 --> 00:23:54,140
Redfern in here Nick you have a book

600
00:23:57,730 --> 00:23:55,790
called science fiction secrets from

601
00:24:00,220 --> 00:23:57,740
government files in the paranormal and

602
00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:00,230
I'm looking at your product description

603
00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:03,050
here on your website and it says I love

604
00:24:07,900 --> 00:24:04,850
this all the ingredients for high

605
00:24:09,550 --> 00:24:07,910
strangeness do mix two-part science

606
00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:09,560
fiction with one part high level

607
00:24:13,310 --> 00:24:11,690
government secrecy at a liberal helping

608
00:24:16,399 --> 00:24:13,320
of the paranormal and then

609
00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:16,409
Nick Redfern heat and serve the result

610
00:24:19,310 --> 00:24:17,970
is far far stranger than anything that

611
00:24:20,659 --> 00:24:19,320
you could ever begin to imagine all

612
00:24:24,799 --> 00:24:20,669
right Nick let's let you heat and serve

613
00:24:28,820 --> 00:24:24,809
here to thank Patrick waves but those

614
00:24:31,310 --> 00:24:28,830
were Paul has a special price on that

615
00:24:34,490 --> 00:24:31,320
you could use those words again just

616
00:24:37,039 --> 00:24:34,500
send them a check you didn't write those

617
00:24:39,169 --> 00:24:37,049
yourself I'm shocked you have underneath

618
00:24:40,940 --> 00:24:39,179
that though because Paul had mentioned

619
00:24:43,129 --> 00:24:40,950
Steven Spielberg I guess I mentioned

620
00:24:45,139 --> 00:24:43,139
first of all mentioned we talked very

621
00:24:46,999 --> 00:24:45,149
briefly about Spielberg but you have

622
00:24:49,220 --> 00:24:47,009
here question one of the things you talk

623
00:24:51,019 --> 00:24:49,230
about in your book did the US government

624
00:24:52,700 --> 00:24:51,029
secretly assist Steven Spielberg in the

625
00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:52,710
production of his groundbreaking science

626
00:24:56,950 --> 00:24:54,450
fiction movies Close Encounters of the

627
00:25:01,100 --> 00:24:56,960
Third Kind and et the extra-terrestrial

628
00:25:02,419 --> 00:25:01,110
did they ask you about yeah I mean one

629
00:25:05,930 --> 00:25:02,429
thing that sort of preface that with

630
00:25:07,399 --> 00:25:05,940
Paul is that I suppose my my exposure

631
00:25:09,409 --> 00:25:07,409
and involvement with science fiction is

632
00:25:11,269 --> 00:25:09,419
very different to many other people in

633
00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:11,279
the sense rather ironically for someone

634
00:25:14,570 --> 00:25:12,570
who's written a book about the subject

635
00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:14,580
I'm not that interested in science

636
00:25:19,850 --> 00:25:17,129
fiction per se but what is what has

637
00:25:22,330 --> 00:25:19,860
fascinated me for a long time is the way

638
00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:22,340
in which all the allegations at least

639
00:25:26,990 --> 00:25:24,210
suggesting that the world of science

640
00:25:29,450 --> 00:25:27,000
fiction has been manipulated or there's

641
00:25:31,940 --> 00:25:29,460
been a kind of clandestine two way

642
00:25:33,649 --> 00:25:31,950
process between elements and the

643
00:25:37,100 --> 00:25:33,659
official world and the world of science

644
00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:37,110
fiction to present youthful article

645
00:25:42,350 --> 00:25:39,090
themes in a fictional context they're

646
00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:42,360
secretly behind the scenes may be very

647
00:25:45,619 --> 00:25:44,129
real now that doesn't mean they are it

648
00:25:47,930 --> 00:25:45,629
means in the book you know I addressed

649
00:25:52,639 --> 00:25:47,940
whether or not these stories were

650
00:25:55,070 --> 00:25:52,649
genuine now as far as you know the whole

651
00:25:57,710 --> 00:25:55,080
issue of Close Encounters and ETS

652
00:26:01,490 --> 00:25:57,720
because there's been a great deal of

653
00:26:04,730 --> 00:26:01,500
discussion legend rumor etc etc within

654
00:26:06,860 --> 00:26:04,740
the UFO research arena for many years as

655
00:26:09,710 --> 00:26:06,870
to whether or not there was some sort of

656
00:26:12,049 --> 00:26:09,720
subtle pushing and prodding you know by

657
00:26:14,389 --> 00:26:12,059
government agencies to get certain

658
00:26:16,039 --> 00:26:14,399
archetypal themes outs and that meant

659
00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:16,049
that may have been done with Close

660
00:26:20,590 --> 00:26:17,850
Encounters made see the idea that

661
00:26:22,629 --> 00:26:20,600
there's been some sort of face-to-face

662
00:26:25,980 --> 00:26:22,639
interaction you know between

663
00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:25,990
extraterrestrials than us so to speak

664
00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:28,090
of course this is a very controversial

665
00:26:32,310 --> 00:26:30,010
theory I'll be the first to admit that

666
00:26:35,010 --> 00:26:32,320
you know thus far or at least we don't

667
00:26:37,110 --> 00:26:35,020
have hard evidence of that but in terms

668
00:26:39,659 --> 00:26:37,120
of the material that I published in the

669
00:26:41,940 --> 00:26:39,669
book one of the most interesting things

670
00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:41,950
I found is that or a lot of people have

671
00:26:45,930 --> 00:26:43,690
commented on I should say but there I

672
00:26:49,710 --> 00:26:45,940
commented out in my book as well with

673
00:26:51,930 --> 00:26:49,720
this issue of how in June 1982 a special

674
00:26:54,990 --> 00:26:51,940
screening was made at the White House of

675
00:26:57,360 --> 00:26:55,000
ET where Reagan and various members of

676
00:26:59,820 --> 00:26:57,370
his staff were present for thee for the

677
00:27:02,519 --> 00:26:59,830
showing and altogether there's some in

678
00:27:04,950 --> 00:27:02,529
the region 36 guests 37 guests so it was

679
00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:04,960
you know it's almost like a I guess he

680
00:27:09,180 --> 00:27:06,490
wasn't just a film showing it's almost

681
00:27:13,250 --> 00:27:09,190
like an event now what a lot of people

682
00:27:16,830 --> 00:27:13,260
don't realize he's only 24 hours after

683
00:27:19,350 --> 00:27:16,840
Reagan watched 80 and supposedly at

684
00:27:20,639 --> 00:27:19,360
least made an aside to Spielberg if

685
00:27:23,279 --> 00:27:20,649
there are only a certain number of

686
00:27:25,470 --> 00:27:23,289
people in the room who knew how real it

687
00:27:27,419 --> 00:27:25,480
allegedly was only 24 hours after he

688
00:27:30,289 --> 00:27:27,429
allegedly made that statement what we do

689
00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:30,299
know for absolutely with 100% certainty

690
00:27:36,149 --> 00:27:33,250
because on the following morning Reagan

691
00:27:38,340 --> 00:27:36,159
received a briefing on the then current

692
00:27:40,769 --> 00:27:38,350
and future plans from the US for the

693
00:27:42,510 --> 00:27:40,779
u.s. space program what's interesting is

694
00:27:44,730 --> 00:27:42,520
that the briefing actually wasn't made

695
00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:44,740
by NASA it was made by representatives

696
00:27:50,130 --> 00:27:46,690
of the National Security Council and

697
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:50,140
those documents and Declassified showing

698
00:27:53,549 --> 00:27:52,210
that but that at least the briefing went

699
00:27:56,730 --> 00:27:53,559
ahead we don't actually know what was in

700
00:27:59,310 --> 00:27:56,740
the briefing completely to this day so I

701
00:28:01,799 --> 00:27:59,320
find that interesting that Spielberg his

702
00:28:04,230 --> 00:28:01,809
film ET shown to the presidents Reagan

703
00:28:06,590 --> 00:28:04,240
expressed a lot of interest and then 24

704
00:28:10,139 --> 00:28:06,600
hours later these you know briefed on

705
00:28:12,450 --> 00:28:10,149
the space operations etc by none other

706
00:28:14,370 --> 00:28:12,460
National Security Council so it's kind

707
00:28:17,039 --> 00:28:14,380
of things like that I've touched upon to

708
00:28:19,279 --> 00:28:17,049
try and you know address these areas of

709
00:28:21,870 --> 00:28:19,289
whether or not science fiction and

710
00:28:24,810 --> 00:28:21,880
ufology at an official level have

711
00:28:28,730 --> 00:28:24,820
crossed paths if you like

712
00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:28,740
[Music]

713
00:28:33,360 --> 00:28:31,090
picture this you're on the phone with a

714
00:28:36,510 --> 00:28:33,370
client or colleague trying to explain

715
00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:36,520
something visual a PowerPoint a keynote

716
00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:38,770
presentation a website but it's

717
00:28:42,210 --> 00:28:41,410
frustrating because they can't see what

718
00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:42,220
you're talking about

719
00:28:47,730 --> 00:28:45,130
the solution good news they can if you

720
00:28:50,820 --> 00:28:47,740
invite them to an online meeting using

721
00:28:52,980 --> 00:28:50,830
GoToMeeting then they can see your

722
00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:52,990
computer desktop on their computer

723
00:28:56,250 --> 00:28:55,330
screen so you can show them what you're

724
00:28:57,900 --> 00:28:56,260
talking about

725
00:28:59,580 --> 00:28:57,910
by use goto meeting all the time to

726
00:29:02,190 --> 00:28:59,590
collaborate with colleagues and with

727
00:29:05,610 --> 00:29:02,200
clients you can try goto meeting free

728
00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:05,620
for 30 days but you must visit goto

729
00:29:12,420 --> 00:29:08,770
meeting / podcasts let's go to

730
00:29:16,380 --> 00:29:12,430
meeting.com slash podcasts for free

731
00:29:19,530 --> 00:29:16,390
30-day trial hi this is Don Ecker and

732
00:29:21,450 --> 00:29:19,540
you are tuned into the para cast let me

733
00:29:24,180 --> 00:29:21,460
tell you what you're gonna hear stuff

734
00:29:27,150 --> 00:29:24,190
here that you probably won't hear

735
00:29:30,450 --> 00:29:27,160
anywhere else here that George Noory

736
00:29:32,700 --> 00:29:30,460
we're crossing the paths of Paul Davis

737
00:29:35,730 --> 00:29:32,710
and Nicholas Redfern our special co-host

738
00:29:37,470 --> 00:29:35,740
is Paul Kimball follow you were up with

739
00:29:39,510 --> 00:29:37,480
a question right yeah I was just gonna

740
00:29:41,460 --> 00:29:39,520
say so what are your conclusions we can

741
00:29:43,740 --> 00:29:41,470
talk about some particular things in

742
00:29:47,370 --> 00:29:43,750
your book but what are your conclusions

743
00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:47,380
on the overall issue or a question is

744
00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:48,370
there a relationship between the

745
00:29:52,380 --> 00:29:50,530
government and science fiction world did

746
00:29:54,330 --> 00:29:52,390
the government has the government used

747
00:29:57,240 --> 00:29:54,340
science fiction too perhaps

748
00:29:59,340 --> 00:29:57,250
seed or control the conversation or

749
00:30:01,710 --> 00:29:59,350
however you want to look at it about the

750
00:30:04,770 --> 00:30:01,720
UFO phenomenon in particular or perhaps

751
00:30:06,390 --> 00:30:04,780
even the paranormal in general well yeah

752
00:30:08,940 --> 00:30:06,400
I mean I think you can look at it some

753
00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:08,950
two ways actually Paul you know I don't

754
00:30:13,230 --> 00:30:11,410
for one minute believe there is anything

755
00:30:15,540 --> 00:30:13,240
too simplistic hidden in the government

756
00:30:16,650 --> 00:30:15,550
is like a project science fiction along

757
00:30:18,150 --> 00:30:16,660
the lines of a project Bluebook

758
00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:18,160
you know I don't believe there is a

759
00:30:23,550 --> 00:30:20,530
particular group whose whose role it is

760
00:30:25,590 --> 00:30:23,560
to seed UFO facts into the realm of

761
00:30:27,330 --> 00:30:25,600
science fiction but if you ask me do I

762
00:30:30,300 --> 00:30:27,340
think it's possible that it may have

763
00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:30,310
been done on occasion I do think that

764
00:30:33,300 --> 00:30:31,690
has happened and also what I think has

765
00:30:37,260 --> 00:30:33,310
happened is that government agencies

766
00:30:39,390 --> 00:30:37,270
have been inspired by science fiction to

767
00:30:41,670 --> 00:30:39,400
embark on clandestine projects now for

768
00:30:44,250 --> 00:30:41,680
example one of the chapters I have in

769
00:30:47,100 --> 00:30:44,260
the book deals with the way in which the

770
00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:47,110
Air Force contracted out a project to

771
00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:50,170
determine if teleportation at the time I

772
00:30:54,900 --> 00:30:52,210
guess most successful shown in Star Trek

773
00:30:57,510 --> 00:30:54,910
and least successfully showed him to fly

774
00:30:58,830 --> 00:30:57,520
you know could be achieved or couldn't

775
00:31:00,630 --> 00:30:58,840
be achieved you know and asked the

776
00:31:02,670 --> 00:31:00,640
question would the Air Force actually

777
00:31:05,330 --> 00:31:02,680
locked into this if in a fictional for

778
00:31:07,290 --> 00:31:05,340
that in the fly and in Star Trek

779
00:31:09,090 --> 00:31:07,300
teleportation hadn't be discussed and

780
00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:09,100
actually think you know the Air Force

781
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:10,810
may well not have looked into it you

782
00:31:12,900 --> 00:31:12,010
know so in other words they were

783
00:31:16,650 --> 00:31:12,910
inspired by it

784
00:31:19,530 --> 00:31:16,660
same with for example the former Soviet

785
00:31:22,170 --> 00:31:19,540
premier Joseph Stalin he was a very big

786
00:31:24,750 --> 00:31:22,180
fan of HG Wells is science fiction and

787
00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:24,760
particularly of the the island of dr.

788
00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:26,770
Moreau where you have this sub crazed

789
00:31:31,530 --> 00:31:29,650
doctor doing you know the 19th century

790
00:31:33,900 --> 00:31:31,540
equivalent of gene splicing trying to

791
00:31:37,020 --> 00:31:33,910
cross humans with Apes and all sorts of

792
00:31:39,990 --> 00:31:37,030
animals to make animals as they became

793
00:31:41,910 --> 00:31:40,000
known and the whole scenario presented

794
00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:41,920
in Welles book was actually something

795
00:31:47,130 --> 00:31:44,250
but styling try to replicate with a

796
00:31:48,630 --> 00:31:47,140
project a very shortly project to try

797
00:31:50,970 --> 00:31:48,640
and cross great humans and apes to

798
00:31:52,470 --> 00:31:50,980
create like an ultimate superhuman super

799
00:31:54,630 --> 00:31:52,480
soldier which of course failed is

800
00:31:57,240 --> 00:31:54,640
astrally never disastrously never worked

801
00:31:58,920 --> 00:31:57,250
so we certainly know that government

802
00:32:02,610 --> 00:31:58,930
agencies have been inspired by science

803
00:32:04,260 --> 00:32:02,620
fiction now you know certainly when it

804
00:32:06,780 --> 00:32:04,270
comes to the other way round

805
00:32:09,060 --> 00:32:06,790
that's I guess the more controversial

806
00:32:11,490 --> 00:32:09,070
area one of the stories I tell in the

807
00:32:14,100 --> 00:32:11,500
book it's a better late 1940s and early

808
00:32:16,470 --> 00:32:14,110
50s filmmaker named Michael Conrad who

809
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:16,480
wrote a road directed and starred in a

810
00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:18,010
very earlier not particularly good

811
00:32:22,530 --> 00:32:19,810
science-fiction film called the Flying

812
00:32:26,610 --> 00:32:22,540
Saucer in this particular film Conrad

813
00:32:30,660 --> 00:32:26,620
plays a guy who goes up to Alaska with

814
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:30,670
their beautiful FBI agent and always

815
00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:33,970
beautiful FBI agent exactly and

816
00:32:38,910 --> 00:32:36,490
nothing's changed and they investigate

817
00:32:42,060 --> 00:32:38,920
flying saucer sightings in Alaska now it

818
00:32:43,770 --> 00:32:42,070
so happens curiously enough but Michael

819
00:32:44,610 --> 00:32:43,780
Conrad actually became the subject of an

820
00:32:46,980 --> 00:32:44,620
extensive

821
00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:46,990
Air Force file and the reason being that

822
00:32:52,660 --> 00:32:49,730
at the very same time the Conrad

823
00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:52,670
film was talking about flying saucers in

824
00:32:57,000 --> 00:32:54,770
Alaska in a fictional setting the Air

825
00:32:59,950 --> 00:32:57,010
Force was actually and ironically

826
00:33:02,470 --> 00:32:59,960
investigating real sightings of UFOs in

827
00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:02,480
Alaska some of which paralleled eerily

828
00:33:06,420 --> 00:33:04,970
closely the stories that Conrad was

829
00:33:08,470 --> 00:33:06,430
telling and there was actually

830
00:33:11,050 --> 00:33:08,480
speculation within the Air Force that

831
00:33:14,470 --> 00:33:11,060
somebody on the inside was leaking

832
00:33:17,380 --> 00:33:14,480
information on some of the project

833
00:33:20,500 --> 00:33:17,390
grudge and then the the later Blue Book

834
00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:20,510
reports on sightings in Alaska but it

835
00:33:25,150 --> 00:33:23,090
was somehow filtering down to Conrad and

836
00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:25,160
questions rest well who's doing this and

837
00:33:30,370 --> 00:33:27,290
what's the motivation you know so you

838
00:33:32,470 --> 00:33:30,380
could actually begin to wonder was

839
00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:32,480
somebody on the inside subtly releasing

840
00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:34,850
these stories to him knowing that he was

841
00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:37,610
making this film the setting was Alaska

842
00:33:41,980 --> 00:33:39,650
and to determine you know public

843
00:33:44,230 --> 00:33:41,990
reaction it's a theory but if you know

844
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:44,240
it's an intriguing theory all be one

845
00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:46,010
that we go and have hard definitive

846
00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:48,290
facts or so I'd not kind of come down

847
00:33:51,580 --> 00:33:50,330
you know forcefully on one way or the

848
00:33:53,860 --> 00:33:51,590
other because we don't have the evidence

849
00:33:56,860 --> 00:33:53,870
to do that what we do have a lot of sort

850
00:33:58,750 --> 00:33:56,870
of suggestive tangents that push us in

851
00:34:00,760 --> 00:33:58,760
that direction I think that's sort of

852
00:34:03,070 --> 00:34:00,770
the best we can say right now one of the

853
00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:03,080
things I noticed was the original film

854
00:34:08,710 --> 00:34:06,050
de Vere Stood Still influence the

855
00:34:10,870 --> 00:34:08,720
contactees the aliens came in a silvery

856
00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:10,880
uniform they were warning us of the

857
00:34:15,730 --> 00:34:13,610
consequences of our practice of war and

858
00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:15,740
nuclear weapons they spoke a look

859
00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:17,450
through English they solved our

860
00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:22,490
equations for us that's it man but we

861
00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:24,170
ought to bring up the Howard Hawks film

862
00:34:30,250 --> 00:34:27,770
again I think from 1950 51 the thing

863
00:34:32,410 --> 00:34:30,260
from another world yes we call the thing

864
00:34:35,020 --> 00:34:32,420
first one not the John Carpenter remake

865
00:34:37,050 --> 00:34:35,030
but because that was said in the Arctic

866
00:34:39,910 --> 00:34:37,060
I don't know it was specifically Alaska

867
00:34:42,450 --> 00:34:39,920
it was essentially the Roswell story

868
00:34:45,580 --> 00:34:42,460
three years after the Roswell incident

869
00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:45,590
but said in the frozen north instead of

870
00:34:52,380 --> 00:34:47,690
set in the desert but it was the crash

871
00:34:55,210 --> 00:34:52,390
of a flying saucer with one survivor and

872
00:34:58,360 --> 00:34:55,220
you had the clash there between the news

873
00:35:00,640 --> 00:34:58,370
media and the military where the news

874
00:35:02,780 --> 00:35:00,650
media was very anxious to tell the story

875
00:35:06,110 --> 00:35:02,790
to the world and the military

876
00:35:08,270 --> 00:35:06,120
that so you know that was that was

877
00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:08,280
indicative of you know what had been in

878
00:35:12,260 --> 00:35:09,570
the news what was going on I was just

879
00:35:14,900 --> 00:35:12,270
set in another location the the Alaska

880
00:35:17,420 --> 00:35:14,910
interest you know continues through the

881
00:35:19,460 --> 00:35:17,430
decades up to the very recent film

882
00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:19,470
called the Fourth Kind which Universal

883
00:35:26,060 --> 00:35:22,890
Pictures released about abduction set in

884
00:35:30,590 --> 00:35:26,070
Alaska and you know promoted with a

885
00:35:32,990 --> 00:35:30,600
quasi real or Blair Witch style of

886
00:35:35,780 --> 00:35:33,000
things that were you know purportedly

887
00:35:38,240 --> 00:35:35,790
true but you know just really major

888
00:35:39,650 --> 00:35:38,250
seemed that way for for for effects than

889
00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:39,660
the benefit of the audience as opposed

890
00:35:44,540 --> 00:35:42,690
to I think you know anything that's

891
00:35:46,430 --> 00:35:44,550
really happened in Alaska but you

892
00:35:49,220 --> 00:35:46,440
certainly had incredible things

893
00:35:53,660 --> 00:35:49,230
happening in Alaska that inspired that

894
00:35:57,470 --> 00:35:53,670
one of which would have been the 1986

895
00:36:01,510 --> 00:35:57,480
Japan Airlines flight off Anchorage

896
00:36:06,100 --> 00:36:01,520
Alaska flight 1628 I think it was which

897
00:36:10,100 --> 00:36:06,110
in which captain Terauchi and his crew

898
00:36:12,140 --> 00:36:10,110
cited an absolutely massive mothership

899
00:36:15,470 --> 00:36:12,150
that they described as two times the

900
00:36:18,230 --> 00:36:15,480
size of an aircraft carrier with saucers

901
00:36:21,700 --> 00:36:18,240
coming and going from it and playing

902
00:36:25,930 --> 00:36:21,710
cat-and-mouse with their airplane and

903
00:36:28,370 --> 00:36:25,940
this was all you know very thoroughly

904
00:36:31,310 --> 00:36:28,380
documented with interviews with the crew

905
00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:31,320
who made drawings they counted the whole

906
00:36:35,270 --> 00:36:34,290
thing there were radar returns some of

907
00:36:37,610 --> 00:36:35,280
this all happened with live

908
00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:37,620
communication that was released by the

909
00:36:43,910 --> 00:36:39,930
FAA to the general public if you wanted

910
00:36:45,500 --> 00:36:43,920
to order it so that was one of many many

911
00:36:47,240 --> 00:36:45,510
indication there have been abduction

912
00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:47,250
reports from Alaska

913
00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:50,970
there was the mysterious disappearance

914
00:36:58,280 --> 00:36:55,050
of I think a u.s. senator whose plane

915
00:37:00,800 --> 00:36:58,290
was never found again and who's at least

916
00:37:03,230 --> 00:37:00,810
one of his sons now speaks at you from

917
00:37:05,240 --> 00:37:03,240
folk conferences senator Begich I think

918
00:37:06,740 --> 00:37:05,250
I have those facts right correct me Nick

919
00:37:08,720 --> 00:37:06,750
if I've got it wrong but it's the

920
00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:08,730
overlaps the overlap is everywhere to be

921
00:37:14,150 --> 00:37:12,090
found between the fiction that is sold

922
00:37:16,070 --> 00:37:14,160
to the public or a profit it's a

923
00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:16,080
commercial enterprise it's science

924
00:37:18,890 --> 00:37:16,650
fiction

925
00:37:21,980 --> 00:37:18,900
business of billions of dollars a year

926
00:37:24,950 --> 00:37:21,990
and it's one of America's biggest

927
00:37:26,930 --> 00:37:24,960
exports to the world so as many of our

928
00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:26,940
cars to the rest of the world now as we

929
00:37:31,609 --> 00:37:28,650
do our science fiction films look at

930
00:37:33,470 --> 00:37:31,619
Avatar if you know I passed 2 billion

931
00:37:35,299 --> 00:37:33,480
dollars of worldwide growth in just a

932
00:37:37,130 --> 00:37:35,309
couple of months since its release as a

933
00:37:39,319 --> 00:37:37,140
filmmaker I look at film like Avatar and

934
00:37:42,019 --> 00:37:39,329
say I'll take point five percent of

935
00:37:44,150 --> 00:37:42,029
their worldwide gross oh well point

936
00:37:52,809 --> 00:37:44,160
don't be greedy point zero zero zero

937
00:37:55,279 --> 00:37:52,819
five point zero zero two I'll take that

938
00:37:59,170 --> 00:37:55,289
attorney talk about that again but since

939
00:38:01,579 --> 00:37:59,180
I don't know an avatar I only own a

940
00:38:05,569 --> 00:38:01,589
science fiction documentary known as the

941
00:38:07,670 --> 00:38:05,579
sci-fi boys which explored the origins

942
00:38:09,980 --> 00:38:07,680
of movie science fiction through

943
00:38:11,750 --> 00:38:09,990
interviews with many of the top people

944
00:38:15,589 --> 00:38:11,760
in the field Academy Award winners and

945
00:38:18,470 --> 00:38:15,599
also in part took a look at Hollywood's

946
00:38:20,029 --> 00:38:18,480
portrayal of aliens and that part of the

947
00:38:21,980 --> 00:38:20,039
film was serious enough that the film

948
00:38:25,039 --> 00:38:21,990
was honored with one of the ebee

949
00:38:29,150 --> 00:38:25,049
Awards at the International UFO Congress

950
00:38:30,500 --> 00:38:29,160
and that stands for extraterrestrial

951
00:38:33,109 --> 00:38:30,510
biological entity

952
00:38:35,240 --> 00:38:33,119
Paul Kimball I think I know you've

953
00:38:39,049 --> 00:38:35,250
entered your films there didn't you win

954
00:38:42,019 --> 00:38:39,059
one of those Eevee Ward's I have three

955
00:38:44,329 --> 00:38:42,029
in fact all the to display at the Aztec

956
00:38:46,039 --> 00:38:44,339
city library in Stech New Mexico but I

957
00:38:48,109 --> 00:38:46,049
have one staring at me right now they're

958
00:38:50,569 --> 00:38:48,119
they're quite cute you you handed it to

959
00:38:52,279 --> 00:38:50,579
me actually you were the presenter and I

960
00:38:57,410 --> 00:38:52,289
was and I think that that one was that

961
00:38:59,000 --> 00:38:57,420
your film about the ten best cases we're

962
00:39:02,029 --> 00:38:59,010
talking about this in our sort of

963
00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:02,039
preamble and the the question of gene

964
00:39:07,579 --> 00:39:04,650
race to me whether we should just leave

965
00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:07,589
all the old historical cases behind and

966
00:39:11,599 --> 00:39:09,450
concentrate more on investigating new

967
00:39:13,490 --> 00:39:11,609
cases and my answer to him especially

968
00:39:15,710 --> 00:39:13,500
having done a film called best evidence

969
00:39:17,420 --> 00:39:15,720
top 10 UFO sightings where basically

970
00:39:19,789 --> 00:39:17,430
you're dealing with historical cases is

971
00:39:22,670 --> 00:39:19,799
no there's still much that we can learn

972
00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:22,680
from not only how those cases were

973
00:39:26,690 --> 00:39:24,450
investigated mistakes made or not made

974
00:39:29,250 --> 00:39:26,700
but from the cases themselves there's

975
00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:29,260
still a raft of cases in the public

976
00:39:32,940 --> 00:39:31,690
domain from project Bluebook that people

977
00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:32,950
haven't looked at yet I mean they just

978
00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:34,690
haven't been gone through by UFO

979
00:39:38,820 --> 00:39:37,090
researchers so who knows what people are

980
00:39:43,080 --> 00:39:38,830
gonna find in there one of those cases

981
00:39:44,670 --> 00:39:43,090
the 1953 Kelly Johnson sighting that was

982
00:39:48,300 --> 00:39:44,680
in my film I think it was the number six

983
00:39:50,910 --> 00:39:48,310
ago Kentucky no is Kelly John Santa

984
00:39:52,980 --> 00:39:50,920
Barbara actually Kelly Johnson the

985
00:39:55,410 --> 00:39:52,990
designer of the u2 has five play in the

986
00:39:58,050 --> 00:39:55,420
sr-71 working for Lockheed at the time

987
00:40:01,020 --> 00:39:58,060
he saw a UFO from his porch with his

988
00:40:03,960 --> 00:40:01,030
wife in Agoura California at the same

989
00:40:05,849 --> 00:40:03,970
time as a crew of his top test pilots as

990
00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:05,859
engineers were flying over Santa Barbara

991
00:40:09,390 --> 00:40:07,930
Channel and cited the exact same thing

992
00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:09,400
so they all kind of show up at work the

993
00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:12,130
next day and say hey guess what I saw

994
00:40:16,380 --> 00:40:14,650
yesterday what you see you know they

995
00:40:19,050 --> 00:40:16,390
realized they were looking at the exact

996
00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:19,060
same thing and the Air Force this is one

997
00:40:21,870 --> 00:40:20,170
of my favorite things the United States

998
00:40:23,609 --> 00:40:21,880
Air Force said their official

999
00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:23,619
explanation after they investigated it

1000
00:40:27,450 --> 00:40:25,570
was that these people saw a lenticular

1001
00:40:30,900 --> 00:40:27,460
cloud and one of their all-time

1002
00:40:32,130 --> 00:40:30,910
favorites and the narration in the film

1003
00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:32,140
says well you know any competent

1004
00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:33,850
government would have fired these people

1005
00:40:36,720 --> 00:40:35,410
immediately if they couldn't tell the

1006
00:40:39,030 --> 00:40:36,730
difference between a structured craft

1007
00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:39,040
and a lenticular cloud and there Kelly

1008
00:40:42,240 --> 00:40:40,810
Johnson went on designing some of the

1009
00:40:44,609 --> 00:40:42,250
most top-secret high-performance

1010
00:40:46,620 --> 00:40:44,619
aircraft in the history of the human

1011
00:40:49,890 --> 00:40:46,630
race in fact despite the fact that in

1012
00:40:52,140 --> 00:40:49,900
1953 it seen a UFO over Santa Barbara

1013
00:40:54,510 --> 00:40:52,150
Channel that's it that's it right there

1014
00:40:56,640 --> 00:40:54,520
if you see a lenticular cloud ladies and

1015
00:40:59,130 --> 00:40:56,650
gentlemen that qualifies you to do

1016
00:41:01,410 --> 00:40:59,140
really deep level scientific research

1017
00:41:03,930 --> 00:41:01,420
and engineering well yeah the truth is

1018
00:41:06,720 --> 00:41:03,940
lenticular clouds are often mistaken for

1019
00:41:10,020 --> 00:41:06,730
UFOs so it's it's not completely bogus

1020
00:41:11,550 --> 00:41:10,030
but the idea that Kelly Johnson and some

1021
00:41:12,900 --> 00:41:11,560
of his top personnel at a different

1022
00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:12,910
location seeing the same thing at the

1023
00:41:16,650 --> 00:41:14,530
same time all of whom saying it was

1024
00:41:19,410 --> 00:41:16,660
destructured craft would mistake that

1025
00:41:21,630 --> 00:41:19,420
for a lenticular cloud that doesn't just

1026
00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:21,640
beggar belief that is clearly an

1027
00:41:24,150 --> 00:41:22,930
explanation that the Air Force just

1028
00:41:25,260 --> 00:41:24,160
cooked up because they didn't want to

1029
00:41:27,510 --> 00:41:25,270
talk about it anymore

1030
00:41:30,030 --> 00:41:27,520
but Paul I going back to the Howard

1031
00:41:32,609 --> 00:41:30,040
Hawks film looking at these things

1032
00:41:34,230 --> 00:41:32,619
the Hawks film came out during the time

1033
00:41:36,630 --> 00:41:34,240
of the the House Committee on American

1034
00:41:39,120 --> 00:41:36,640
Activities the McCarthy McCarthy things

1035
00:41:41,490 --> 00:41:39,130
before that actually because I think

1036
00:41:42,810 --> 00:41:41,500
that I'm certain that the Hawks film was

1037
00:41:45,390 --> 00:41:42,820
1950 I

1038
00:41:47,340 --> 00:41:45,400
three years after Roswell I think about

1039
00:41:50,190 --> 00:41:47,350
American activities who it's about 1952

1040
00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:50,200
I think what I think it preceded the the

1041
00:41:53,850 --> 00:41:51,850
anti-communist sort of thing was

1042
00:41:56,040 --> 00:41:53,860
certainly going on in the latter years

1043
00:41:59,070 --> 00:41:56,050
of the Truman administration so whether

1044
00:42:00,840 --> 00:41:59,080
you are was actually underway House

1045
00:42:02,490 --> 00:42:00,850
Committee on American Activities I'll

1046
00:42:04,680 --> 00:42:02,500
check that on the break okay by the way

1047
00:42:06,720 --> 00:42:04,690
the official date from the Internet

1048
00:42:12,180 --> 00:42:06,730
Movie Database for the thing from

1049
00:42:14,640 --> 00:42:12,190
another world is 1951 in 1950 and even

1050
00:42:17,730 --> 00:42:14,650
earlier I suppose and the name was

1051
00:42:23,010 --> 00:42:17,740
played by marshal Dillon oh very nice

1052
00:42:25,170 --> 00:42:23,020
but isn't it possible the wasn't James

1053
00:42:27,990 --> 00:42:25,180
Arnett it was James Arness yes James

1054
00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:28,000
Arness played the thing and we consider

1055
00:42:30,930 --> 00:42:29,410
that in light of the death of his

1056
00:42:32,850 --> 00:42:30,940
younger brother Peter Graves from

1057
00:42:34,410 --> 00:42:32,860
Mission Impossible yeah that was his

1058
00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:34,420
first of all I think he didn't want to

1059
00:42:38,430 --> 00:42:36,970
be remembered to that role though yeah

1060
00:42:41,340 --> 00:42:38,440
just like Boris Karloff did what be

1061
00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:41,350
remembered for Frankenstein

1062
00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:42,850
my only thing about it would be that I

1063
00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:45,490
think it came out around that time

1064
00:42:49,590 --> 00:42:47,530
certainly there was the anti-communist

1065
00:42:50,940 --> 00:42:49,600
hysteria hysteria a lot of the film

1066
00:42:52,230 --> 00:42:50,950
historians and people in the film

1067
00:42:54,360 --> 00:42:52,240
industry that I've talked to would look

1068
00:42:56,040 --> 00:42:54,370
at that film as being a metaphor that

1069
00:42:58,770 --> 00:42:56,050
science fiction often is for things that

1070
00:43:01,260 --> 00:42:58,780
are going on in our own world going back

1071
00:43:04,140 --> 00:43:01,270
to the Roswell case you could say yes

1072
00:43:06,270 --> 00:43:04,150
Roswell but you could probably say a

1073
00:43:08,160 --> 00:43:06,280
case a flat crashed flying saucer case

1074
00:43:11,370 --> 00:43:08,170
that was much more well known at that

1075
00:43:12,900 --> 00:43:11,380
time the Aztec case right that's a Frank

1076
00:43:14,460 --> 00:43:12,910
Scully's book which you know the rat

1077
00:43:17,070 --> 00:43:14,470
literally there was a book written on it

1078
00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:17,080
a lot of publicity about it it's

1079
00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:19,090
possible that a lot of people said that

1080
00:43:24,150 --> 00:43:21,970
that was a smokescreen for their aura

1081
00:43:28,290 --> 00:43:24,160
gradually did he specifically say Aztec

1082
00:43:29,880 --> 00:43:28,300
in in his book McCulloch it's been a

1083
00:43:34,590 --> 00:43:29,890
couple years since I've read the book

1084
00:43:44,470 --> 00:43:41,650
[Music]

1085
00:43:46,569 --> 00:43:44,480
fate magazine provides true reports of

1086
00:43:49,150 --> 00:43:46,579
the strange and unknown keep up with the

1087
00:43:52,299 --> 00:43:49,160
latest on angels and miracles psychic

1088
00:43:53,230 --> 00:43:52,309
phenomena ghosts UFOs life after death

1089
00:43:55,660 --> 00:43:53,240
and much much more

1090
00:43:58,299 --> 00:43:55,670
to receive your free issue of faith

1091
00:44:02,230 --> 00:43:58,309
magazine call now at one eight hundred

1092
00:44:05,999 --> 00:44:02,240
seven two eight two seven three zero or

1093
00:44:08,940 --> 00:44:06,009
visit their website at WWF at medCom

1094
00:44:17,529 --> 00:44:08,950
that's one eight hundred seven two eight

1095
00:44:20,230 --> 00:44:17,539
twenty seven thirty or WWF AEMA g.com

1096
00:44:25,910 --> 00:44:20,240
what are you waiting for your fate

1097
00:44:38,829 --> 00:44:32,310
[Music]

1098
00:44:41,650 --> 00:44:38,839
we have paul davids and we have Nicolas

1099
00:44:43,299 --> 00:44:41,660
Redfern and our NGO host is Paul Kimball

1100
00:44:46,029 --> 00:44:43,309
by the way the thing was originally

1101
00:44:50,289 --> 00:44:46,039
based on a novel or a short story rather

1102
00:44:51,460 --> 00:44:50,299
from john w campbell jr. very famous in

1103
00:44:59,999 --> 00:44:51,470
the science fiction fields an author

1104
00:45:04,150 --> 00:45:02,469
we're both things but we've never met

1105
00:45:07,630 --> 00:45:04,160
but we're both things from different

1106
00:45:09,339 --> 00:45:07,640
worlds let me ask you picking up on next

1107
00:45:12,430 --> 00:45:09,349
point and what Nick and I were talking

1108
00:45:15,489 --> 00:45:12,440
about the question of do you think that

1109
00:45:17,620 --> 00:45:15,499
the government or elements within the

1110
00:45:21,579 --> 00:45:17,630
government have used science fiction to

1111
00:45:23,559 --> 00:45:21,589
seed ideas about our assuming and as you

1112
00:45:25,329 --> 00:45:23,569
I think you know I'm an agnostic on the

1113
00:45:28,349 --> 00:45:25,339
question of extraterrestrial visitation

1114
00:45:30,190 --> 00:45:28,359
I'm hopeful agnostic but assuming that

1115
00:45:31,299 --> 00:45:30,200
extraterrestrials are visiting here and

1116
00:45:34,569 --> 00:45:31,309
assuming that the government knows that

1117
00:45:35,799 --> 00:45:34,579
are they using do you think would it

1118
00:45:38,469 --> 00:45:35,809
make sense for them to use science

1119
00:45:41,140 --> 00:45:38,479
fiction as a way of seeding of preparing

1120
00:45:42,940 --> 00:45:41,150
the population for instance for the

1121
00:45:45,339 --> 00:45:42,950
eventual revelation that maybe we do

1122
00:45:48,640 --> 00:45:45,349
have friends from outer space that are

1123
00:45:50,289 --> 00:45:48,650
here and how might that tie-in to

1124
00:45:52,959 --> 00:45:50,299
something else that happened in the

1125
00:45:54,219 --> 00:45:52,969
early 1950s the Robertson panel where

1126
00:45:56,709 --> 00:45:54,229
they got together and said on the one

1127
00:45:59,309 --> 00:45:56,719
hand we need to debunk these UFO reports

1128
00:46:03,759 --> 00:45:59,319
but also talked about using the media to

1129
00:46:05,499 --> 00:46:03,769
control how you have the Walt Disney

1130
00:46:08,229 --> 00:46:05,509
Company of the company that might be out

1131
00:46:10,569 --> 00:46:08,239
Poland honking the idea those companies

1132
00:46:12,219 --> 00:46:10,579
also been helpful in spreading

1133
00:46:14,920 --> 00:46:12,229
information that maybe they wanted us

1134
00:46:15,969 --> 00:46:14,930
know in order to prepare us I'm just

1135
00:46:17,650 --> 00:46:15,979
wondering what your thoughts on that

1136
00:46:21,630 --> 00:46:17,660
might be I think that's probably true

1137
00:46:23,799 --> 00:46:21,640
that ideas have been seeded that very

1138
00:46:28,239 --> 00:46:23,809
enthusiastic people who have classified

1139
00:46:30,489 --> 00:46:28,249
information they're approached it as you

1140
00:46:32,799 --> 00:46:30,499
know in terms of fictions for people

1141
00:46:35,170 --> 00:46:32,809
within the Hollywood community or have

1142
00:46:38,469 --> 00:46:35,180
you know in some cases at least things

1143
00:46:41,140 --> 00:46:38,479
that had great repercussions we did take

1144
00:46:43,329 --> 00:46:41,150
the mg 12 documents for example now

1145
00:46:45,080 --> 00:46:43,339
without even needing to get into a

1146
00:46:48,740 --> 00:46:45,090
debate about whether

1147
00:46:52,070 --> 00:46:48,750
mj-12 is factual or whether it's fiction

1148
00:46:54,560 --> 00:46:52,080
the fact that that document was leaked

1149
00:47:02,260 --> 00:46:54,570
in about nineteen late 1980s

1150
00:47:05,180 --> 00:47:02,270
maybe 88 and anymore I think an 83

1151
00:47:08,359 --> 00:47:05,190
leaked in a way that certainly it had

1152
00:47:10,250 --> 00:47:08,369
every appearance of complete reality

1153
00:47:12,800 --> 00:47:10,260
about it and then the researchers took

1154
00:47:16,190 --> 00:47:12,810
it from there and some torn apart and

1155
00:47:17,690 --> 00:47:16,200
said it holds up it's true like someone

1156
00:47:20,060 --> 00:47:17,700
who is related to you Paul Kimball and

1157
00:47:23,690 --> 00:47:20,070
that would be Stan Freedman

1158
00:47:26,660 --> 00:47:23,700
yes and there's others who like chemin

1159
00:47:29,750 --> 00:47:26,670
Randall who dismissed it there's others

1160
00:47:31,760 --> 00:47:29,760
who felt that it was based on real

1161
00:47:33,740 --> 00:47:31,770
documents but it had been rewritten and

1162
00:47:35,839 --> 00:47:33,750
presented in a way that it could be

1163
00:47:37,240 --> 00:47:35,849
discredited but that it was real

1164
00:47:39,620 --> 00:47:37,250
information being put out there

1165
00:47:41,990 --> 00:47:39,630
regardless of whatever of those is true

1166
00:47:44,720 --> 00:47:42,000
the fact that that document was leaked

1167
00:47:46,580 --> 00:47:44,730
and there's circumstances where a lot of

1168
00:47:49,339 --> 00:47:46,590
people believed it was true for a long

1169
00:47:52,070 --> 00:47:49,349
time really influenced Hollywood in a

1170
00:47:52,730 --> 00:47:52,080
major way and some examples would be the

1171
00:47:55,250 --> 00:47:52,740
x-files

1172
00:47:58,010 --> 00:47:55,260
the television series that was almost

1173
00:48:00,380 --> 00:47:58,020
based on the mj-12 document the film

1174
00:48:03,609 --> 00:48:00,390
that I was executive producer of and

1175
00:48:07,339 --> 00:48:03,619
co-wrote called Roswell it came out in

1176
00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:07,349
1994 on Showtime and it presented the

1177
00:48:12,680 --> 00:48:11,010
Roswell case as as we felt the testimony

1178
00:48:15,260 --> 00:48:12,690
from the military people were there had

1179
00:48:17,660 --> 00:48:15,270
had presented it those who said that it

1180
00:48:20,800 --> 00:48:17,670
was really extraterrestrial contact

1181
00:48:24,680 --> 00:48:20,810
but the mj-12 documents influenced us

1182
00:48:26,870 --> 00:48:24,690
massively and the whole last part of

1183
00:48:31,010 --> 00:48:26,880
that film where when you have Martin

1184
00:48:34,070 --> 00:48:31,020
Sheen as an informant who might be a dis

1185
00:48:36,560 --> 00:48:34,080
Informer we don't know we never say he

1186
00:48:39,230 --> 00:48:36,570
tells some really interesting things he

1187
00:48:40,670 --> 00:48:39,240
might be spinning stories we never

1188
00:48:43,339 --> 00:48:40,680
answered that question for the viewer

1189
00:48:46,250 --> 00:48:43,349
but we use them as a as a tool as a

1190
00:48:50,000 --> 00:48:46,260
mouthpiece to get out the sort of

1191
00:48:52,510 --> 00:48:50,010
revised history of the last 50 years as

1192
00:48:56,230 --> 00:48:52,520
its presented in the mj-12 documents

1193
00:48:58,010 --> 00:48:56,240
namely that there was a crash at Roswell

1194
00:49:01,280 --> 00:48:58,020
extraterrestrial hardware

1195
00:49:03,920 --> 00:49:01,290
was recovered one of the aliens was

1196
00:49:07,190 --> 00:49:03,930
alive there was communication with that

1197
00:49:10,040 --> 00:49:07,200
alien that the the death of secretary

1198
00:49:11,990 --> 00:49:10,050
Forrestal was related to his knowledge

1199
00:49:14,660 --> 00:49:12,000
of these secrets that he was obliged to

1200
00:49:17,090 --> 00:49:14,670
keep and it goes on and on and on and on

1201
00:49:19,460 --> 00:49:17,100
and then it wasn't just our film but it

1202
00:49:23,110 --> 00:49:19,470
shows up again an Independence Day where

1203
00:49:26,840 --> 00:49:23,120
and then Steven Spielberg said taken and

1204
00:49:30,440 --> 00:49:26,850
dark skies I think also used this

1205
00:49:34,400 --> 00:49:30,450
material so one little document went a

1206
00:49:36,170 --> 00:49:34,410
long way to inspire Hollywood to take

1207
00:49:38,570 --> 00:49:36,180
the information and package it in a

1208
00:49:42,560 --> 00:49:38,580
commercial form and get it out there in

1209
00:49:44,270 --> 00:49:42,570
a way in which everyone in the in the

1210
00:49:46,910 --> 00:49:44,280
public yeah because familiar with it how

1211
00:49:49,310 --> 00:49:46,920
many people out there are there today do

1212
00:49:51,970 --> 00:49:49,320
you think who have never heard of area

1213
00:49:54,080 --> 00:49:51,980
51 wouldn't they be in the minority

1214
00:49:56,720 --> 00:49:54,090
certainly in North America they would

1215
00:49:58,760 --> 00:49:56,730
I'm pretty sure that you know Burundi

1216
00:50:02,090 --> 00:49:58,770
there might not be all that many people

1217
00:50:03,770 --> 00:50:02,100
who know very but the Western world I

1218
00:50:05,480 --> 00:50:03,780
think certainly in the english-speaking

1219
00:50:07,790 --> 00:50:05,490
Western world absolutely

1220
00:50:11,060 --> 00:50:07,800
but it's interesting I think you're

1221
00:50:12,860 --> 00:50:11,070
probably right that much of what we now

1222
00:50:14,450 --> 00:50:12,870
have say in science fiction in the last

1223
00:50:16,340 --> 00:50:14,460
20 years certainly the conspiracy

1224
00:50:19,700 --> 00:50:16,350
oriented stuff things like the x-files

1225
00:50:22,010 --> 00:50:19,710
which was massively influential can

1226
00:50:24,890 --> 00:50:22,020
trace if not directly to majestic 12

1227
00:50:27,140 --> 00:50:24,900
certainly to things like that they they

1228
00:50:28,730 --> 00:50:27,150
borrowed heavily from what was going on

1229
00:50:30,740 --> 00:50:28,740
in the real world whether the real you

1230
00:50:32,480 --> 00:50:30,750
know with us whether the real world was

1231
00:50:34,070 --> 00:50:32,490
actually real or not is largely

1232
00:50:36,920 --> 00:50:34,080
irrelevant to the question of did it

1233
00:50:39,620 --> 00:50:36,930
inspire the people in Hollywood or not

1234
00:50:41,120 --> 00:50:39,630
but it strikes me it's it's an

1235
00:50:44,240 --> 00:50:41,130
interesting it's interesting for two

1236
00:50:47,360 --> 00:50:44,250
reasons one it shows how fast a meme can

1237
00:50:49,340 --> 00:50:47,370
spread and influence things and two

1238
00:50:51,320 --> 00:50:49,350
you're left with the question of is the

1239
00:50:54,950 --> 00:50:51,330
tail wagging the dog or the dog wagging

1240
00:50:56,450 --> 00:50:54,960
the tail so his psyche are these things

1241
00:50:57,530 --> 00:50:56,460
really you're still left with the

1242
00:50:59,720 --> 00:50:57,540
question of whether these things are

1243
00:51:03,650 --> 00:50:59,730
real or not and that's that's what makes

1244
00:51:06,080 --> 00:51:03,660
it interesting to me I suppose - your

1245
00:51:07,640 --> 00:51:06,090
key question of what kinds of things

1246
00:51:09,680 --> 00:51:07,650
have influenced Hollywood to go in this

1247
00:51:11,300 --> 00:51:09,690
direction and again going back to the

1248
00:51:13,670 --> 00:51:11,310
1950s with someone who I

1249
00:51:16,820 --> 00:51:13,680
who I can talk about that would be

1250
00:51:21,470 --> 00:51:16,830
producer director George Powell who

1251
00:51:23,900 --> 00:51:21,480
directed will produced destination moon

1252
00:51:27,860 --> 00:51:23,910
and when worlds collide

1253
00:51:32,000 --> 00:51:27,870
the conquest of space and war the worlds

1254
00:51:37,910 --> 00:51:32,010
and you know he he got input from one of

1255
00:51:40,640 --> 00:51:37,920
our brown and will in LA I think that

1256
00:51:43,130 --> 00:51:40,650
with his war the worlds which had aliens

1257
00:51:45,380 --> 00:51:43,140
in it the other films I don't they

1258
00:51:48,110 --> 00:51:45,390
didn't show you the aliens although

1259
00:51:49,700 --> 00:51:48,120
certainly when worlds collide suggested

1260
00:51:52,940 --> 00:51:49,710
that there are other earth-like worlds

1261
00:51:57,620 --> 00:51:52,950
that we can get to and maybe they can

1262
00:52:00,440 --> 00:51:57,630
get to us but I've always been really

1263
00:52:03,830 --> 00:52:00,450
intrigued by one little clue in George

1264
00:52:09,560 --> 00:52:03,840
pals 1953 movie War of the Worlds and

1265
00:52:12,770 --> 00:52:09,570
it's this in the film Jean Barry with

1266
00:52:16,910 --> 00:52:12,780
coastal star and Robinson they take

1267
00:52:21,100 --> 00:52:16,920
refuge in a farmhouse some isolated area

1268
00:52:25,250 --> 00:52:21,110
and one of the Martian saucers crashes

1269
00:52:27,170 --> 00:52:25,260
actually into that farmhouse and they

1270
00:52:28,700 --> 00:52:27,180
see one of the aliens who comes into the

1271
00:52:31,460 --> 00:52:28,710
farmhouse and they're absolutely

1272
00:52:35,600 --> 00:52:31,470
terrified they fly back to civilization

1273
00:52:39,410 --> 00:52:35,610
and report what happened and what they

1274
00:52:43,580 --> 00:52:39,420
say is that this saucer crashed into the

1275
00:52:46,820 --> 00:52:43,590
farmhouse happened in Kelowna now they

1276
00:52:50,030 --> 00:52:46,830
were referring to Corona California but

1277
00:52:52,640 --> 00:52:50,040
why would the scriptwriter and George

1278
00:52:55,520 --> 00:52:52,650
pal who had approval over that script

1279
00:52:57,140 --> 00:52:55,530
have slipped in that that incident

1280
00:52:59,030 --> 00:52:57,150
happened in Corona they could have named

1281
00:53:01,580 --> 00:52:59,040
anywhere in Southern California and

1282
00:53:05,390 --> 00:53:01,590
Corona of course is where the Roswell

1283
00:53:08,300 --> 00:53:05,400
incident happened Kelowna New Mexico so

1284
00:53:09,680 --> 00:53:08,310
ask yourself if that was deliberate you

1285
00:53:11,540 --> 00:53:09,690
know that that may give you the answer

1286
00:53:13,430 --> 00:53:11,550
to your whole question I think it was

1287
00:53:15,170 --> 00:53:13,440
even though the result Occident was

1288
00:53:16,910 --> 00:53:15,180
buried at that point it had been killed

1289
00:53:18,920 --> 00:53:16,920
it was a few years later it was a

1290
00:53:21,230 --> 00:53:18,930
weather balloon you know no one was

1291
00:53:23,450 --> 00:53:21,240
talking about it then still it slips

1292
00:53:24,980 --> 00:53:23,460
into the movie that the flying saucer

1293
00:53:27,839 --> 00:53:24,990
the crashes into the farmhouses

1294
00:53:29,490 --> 00:53:27,849
that's that's assuming that you accept

1295
00:53:30,930 --> 00:53:29,500
that Corona is actually the crash point

1296
00:53:31,820 --> 00:53:30,940
for whatever happened to Roswell that

1297
00:53:34,830 --> 00:53:31,830
sans

1298
00:53:37,680 --> 00:53:34,840
place I know that other researchers like

1299
00:53:39,839 --> 00:53:37,690
that was that was even at the time it

1300
00:53:47,430 --> 00:53:39,849
was really really widely publicized the

1301
00:53:48,990 --> 00:53:47,440
Brazel ranch is Kelowna not Roswell it's

1302
00:53:50,880 --> 00:53:49,000
not really that's what I'm talking about

1303
00:53:57,540 --> 00:53:50,890
I'm talking about that what would

1304
00:54:00,000 --> 00:53:57,550
publicize of the time the Brazel ranch -

1305
00:54:01,950 --> 00:54:00,010
it's called road to hell that's the only

1306
00:54:04,050 --> 00:54:01,960
bar in town I've actually been there

1307
00:54:06,660 --> 00:54:04,060
very charming old man behind the counter

1308
00:54:08,070 --> 00:54:06,670
with a shotgun so well of course it

1309
00:54:11,609 --> 00:54:08,080
sounds like the place you kind of visit

1310
00:54:13,770 --> 00:54:11,619
I think thing is here is that wouldn't

1311
00:54:16,980 --> 00:54:13,780
it also be true that a scriptwriter is

1312
00:54:18,540 --> 00:54:16,990
gonna take pop culture and embed it into

1313
00:54:20,609 --> 00:54:18,550
the films to make it seem more realistic

1314
00:54:22,800 --> 00:54:20,619
I mean obviously that's why an

1315
00:54:25,290 --> 00:54:22,810
independent state the aliens are evil

1316
00:54:28,109 --> 00:54:25,300
locusts who want to take us over but

1317
00:54:30,060 --> 00:54:28,119
they have area 51 they talk about

1318
00:54:32,160 --> 00:54:30,070
government secrecy and all this stuff

1319
00:54:34,589 --> 00:54:32,170
because they're trying to ground it and

1320
00:54:36,060 --> 00:54:34,599
a basis of fact before they go off in

1321
00:54:38,460 --> 00:54:36,070
fiction it doesn't necessarily have to

1322
00:54:40,050 --> 00:54:38,470
mean that it was inspired by fact not

1323
00:54:43,349 --> 00:54:40,060
ripped from the headlines as they say on

1324
00:54:45,870 --> 00:54:43,359
Law & Order yeah it incorporates what

1325
00:54:48,329 --> 00:54:45,880
was the popular culture at that time

1326
00:54:51,740 --> 00:54:48,339
which wasn't necessarily the popular

1327
00:54:53,970 --> 00:54:51,750
culture ten years before that because I

1328
00:54:57,180 --> 00:54:53,980
tell you when we were making the film

1329
00:54:59,820 --> 00:54:57,190
Roswell Showtime didn't want to seize

1330
00:55:02,790 --> 00:54:59,830
that title because they said it meant

1331
00:55:05,339 --> 00:55:02,800
nothing no one has heard of Roswell no

1332
00:55:07,020 --> 00:55:05,349
one knows what that means they don't you

1333
00:55:08,700 --> 00:55:07,030
know unless you live in New Mexico and

1334
00:55:10,260 --> 00:55:08,710
you've heard of the city people don't

1335
00:55:12,630 --> 00:55:10,270
know that city that was the argument

1336
00:55:14,160 --> 00:55:12,640
given and we were asked to come up with

1337
00:55:16,050 --> 00:55:14,170
some other title for it come up with a

1338
00:55:18,780 --> 00:55:16,060
list that they could choose for and then

1339
00:55:21,210 --> 00:55:18,790
finally you know we beat them down and

1340
00:55:24,089 --> 00:55:21,220
they they agreed to the title that we

1341
00:55:26,310 --> 00:55:24,099
wanted to just call it Roswell because

1342
00:55:29,010 --> 00:55:26,320
for me it's like if you were to just

1343
00:55:30,960 --> 00:55:29,020
call a forum Chernobyl you know it's a

1344
00:55:35,910 --> 00:55:30,970
place but it's a place that has become a

1345
00:55:38,190 --> 00:55:35,920
symbol for a specific issue and that's

1346
00:55:38,670 --> 00:55:38,200
what happened to the town of Roswell and

1347
00:55:41,130 --> 00:55:38,680
again when

1348
00:55:44,070 --> 00:55:41,140
talking to or false we're not talking

1349
00:55:46,560 --> 00:55:44,080
reality or illusion we're just talking

1350
00:55:48,450 --> 00:55:46,570
about what happened in terms of the

1351
00:55:55,800 --> 00:55:48,460
popular culture people hadn't heard of

1352
00:55:57,990 --> 00:55:55,810
it and then by 1995 I would say when the

1353
00:56:02,840 --> 00:55:58,000
Air Force was coming out with its

1354
00:56:05,040 --> 00:56:02,850
reports denying Roswell incident again

1355
00:56:07,680 --> 00:56:05,050
people did know you know there were

1356
00:56:10,710 --> 00:56:07,690
political cartoons about in the paper

1357
00:56:12,960 --> 00:56:10,720
and Clinton was commenting on it you

1358
00:56:16,920 --> 00:56:12,970
know why how did it how did it get to

1359
00:56:20,040 --> 00:56:16,930
that point with an incident that at

1360
00:56:22,860 --> 00:56:20,050
backstage it had happened you know 45

1361
00:56:25,650 --> 00:56:22,870
years ago you look at that get the

1362
00:56:27,720 --> 00:56:25,660
answer to that question and I think

1363
00:56:30,150 --> 00:56:27,730
that's I think there's a lot of clues

1364
00:56:33,240 --> 00:56:30,160
there well and we'll talk a little later

1365
00:56:35,250 --> 00:56:33,250
about Body Snatchers in the desert and

1366
00:56:38,040 --> 00:56:35,260
well we'll go mano-a-mano paul davids

1367
00:56:44,460 --> 00:56:38,050
versus Nick Redfern what actually might

1368
00:56:48,210 --> 00:56:44,470
have happened boxing gloves by the way

1369
00:56:54,210 --> 00:56:48,220
Paul perfect papers have to sign to

1370
00:56:55,440 --> 00:56:54,220
resolve us of liability cover or cover

1371
00:56:58,050 --> 00:56:55,450
and duck depending your point of view

1372
00:56:59,760 --> 00:56:58,060
nice before you split for our number one

1373
00:57:01,500 --> 00:56:59,770
can you tell our listeners where to

1374
00:57:03,450 --> 00:57:01,510
learn more of the things you do and what

1375
00:57:08,850 --> 00:57:03,460
books you have out recently are coming

1376
00:57:11,130 --> 00:57:08,860
out in the near future these contactees

1377
00:57:13,650 --> 00:57:11,140
which is a study of the whole contactee

1378
00:57:16,740 --> 00:57:13,660
moment predominantly the 1950s people

1379
00:57:20,160 --> 00:57:16,750
like a damn ski pants hassle Daniel Frye

1380
00:57:21,630 --> 00:57:20,170
and addresses their claims and also the

1381
00:57:24,120 --> 00:57:21,640
various theories that have been put

1382
00:57:26,880 --> 00:57:24,130
forward to explain the the whole space

1383
00:57:29,130 --> 00:57:26,890
brother movement if you like so it's

1384
00:57:31,260 --> 00:57:29,140
very much like a historical look back at

1385
00:57:34,710 --> 00:57:31,270
the subject but you know trying to

1386
00:57:37,380 --> 00:57:34,720
update it in terms of understanding what

1387
00:57:39,750 --> 00:57:37,390
was going on the the differing theories

1388
00:57:42,120 --> 00:57:39,760
were they mating ritual aliens is it

1389
00:57:43,680 --> 00:57:42,130
possible that they were implanted in the

1390
00:57:46,380 --> 00:57:43,690
subject to try and make it look

1391
00:57:48,630 --> 00:57:46,390
ridiculous was it the government's you

1392
00:57:50,040 --> 00:57:48,640
know using these people all manner of

1393
00:57:52,230 --> 00:57:50,050
different theories I even into

1394
00:57:54,890 --> 00:57:52,240
interviewed Matt Thomas about his crypto

1395
00:57:58,560 --> 00:57:54,900
terrestrial theory about indigenous

1396
00:58:01,859 --> 00:57:58,570
humanoids rather an alien so surgically

1397
00:58:04,890 --> 00:58:01,869
it basically looks at you know the whole

1398
00:58:06,990 --> 00:58:04,900
range of things and I also have a new

1399
00:58:08,820 --> 00:58:07,000
book coming out with anomalous books in

1400
00:58:11,430 --> 00:58:08,830
a few months called final events which

1401
00:58:13,050 --> 00:58:11,440
actually deals with a like a think tank

1402
00:58:15,060 --> 00:58:13,060
organization in the Department of

1403
00:58:17,130 --> 00:58:15,070
Defense that looked at the UFO subject

1404
00:58:19,920 --> 00:58:17,140
for a number of years and actually

1405
00:58:22,200 --> 00:58:19,930
concluded that had nothing to do with

1406
00:58:24,150 --> 00:58:22,210
aliens but it was kind of like her like

1407
00:58:26,430 --> 00:58:24,160
a demonic deception that that was their

1408
00:58:28,380 --> 00:58:26,440
literal conclusion but many of them were

1409
00:58:30,390 --> 00:58:28,390
fundamentalist Christians so as I point

1410
00:58:32,700 --> 00:58:30,400
out in the book you know you have to

1411
00:58:35,940 --> 00:58:32,710
look at the issue of whether or not that

1412
00:58:38,070 --> 00:58:35,950
clouded or influenced their beliefs but

1413
00:58:39,660 --> 00:58:38,080
it's a very disturbing theory about a

1414
00:58:43,440 --> 00:58:39,670
group within the government that was

1415
00:58:45,599 --> 00:58:43,450
given extensive funding to look into the

1416
00:58:48,240 --> 00:58:45,609
idea that we're facing a final battle

1417
00:58:51,150 --> 00:58:48,250
and you know like Armageddon and that

1418
00:58:53,400 --> 00:58:51,160
these entities are spiritual you know a

1419
00:58:55,650 --> 00:58:53,410
deception if you like and it's a very

1420
00:58:55,980 --> 00:58:55,660
controversial and weird story a little

1421
00:58:57,359 --> 00:58:55,990
bit

1422
00:58:59,880 --> 00:58:57,369
by the way in eight months where can we

1423
00:59:02,490 --> 00:58:59,890
go in terms of your website let's Nick

1424
00:59:04,070 --> 00:59:02,500
Redfern calm people can learn about you

1425
00:59:06,960 --> 00:59:04,080
know what I'm up to lectures conferences

1426
00:59:08,579 --> 00:59:06,970
latest news interviews I've done with

1427
00:59:10,920 --> 00:59:08,589
people that sort of thing and we'll

1428
00:59:14,790 --> 00:59:10,930
discuss where to find paul davids if you

1429
00:59:18,420 --> 00:59:14,800
need him but happily yes that would be

1430
00:59:20,700 --> 00:59:18,430
paul davids dot-com and it's not Davis

1431
00:59:24,570 --> 00:59:20,710
it has another D in there it's david

1432
00:59:28,410 --> 00:59:24,580
thoreau paul davids comm also i made a

1433
00:59:32,760 --> 00:59:28,420
film called jesus in india that has

1434
00:59:35,070 --> 00:59:32,770
received a lot of notoriety and i direct

1435
00:59:37,380 --> 00:59:35,080
your listeners to the website to find

1436
00:59:41,040 --> 00:59:37,390
out about that controversy and that's

1437
00:59:42,740 --> 00:59:41,050
Jesus in India the movie.com I want to

1438
00:59:45,870 --> 00:59:42,750
ask you about that in the second segment

1439
00:59:48,240 --> 00:59:45,880
talk about that a little bit paul davids

1440
00:59:50,370 --> 00:59:48,250
Nicholas Redfern was co-host Paul Kimbo

1441
00:59:57,670 --> 00:59:50,380
coming up on the other side of the power

1442
01:00:02,839 --> 01:00:00,230
[Music]

1443
01:00:05,599 --> 01:00:02,849
hey neighbors would you like to see the

1444
01:00:07,310 --> 01:00:05,609
power cast live long and prosper well if

1445
01:00:09,650 --> 01:00:07,320
you know of anyone who wants to

1446
01:00:11,810 --> 01:00:09,660
advertise their products or services on

1447
01:00:14,390 --> 01:00:11,820
the power cast have them contact us

1448
01:00:16,820 --> 01:00:14,400
directly tell them to write to sales and

1449
01:00:20,240 --> 01:00:16,830
act the power cast comm vex

1450
01:00:23,120 --> 01:00:20,250
sales at the para cast come and we also

1451
01:00:25,060 --> 01:00:23,130
accept your donations by paypal send

1452
01:00:29,030 --> 01:00:25,070
your PayPal donation to the same address

1453
01:00:31,550 --> 01:00:29,040
sales at Lapera cast calm and sales at

1454
01:00:32,120 --> 01:00:31,560
the power cast calm and thanks for

1455
01:00:34,280 --> 01:00:32,130
listening

1456
01:00:40,320 --> 01:00:34,290
welcome back to the park house with Jean

1457
01:00:45,540 --> 01:00:42,960
part two of the power cast featuring our

1458
01:00:49,860 --> 01:00:45,550
co-host Paul Campbell introducing paul

1459
01:00:51,540 --> 01:00:49,870
davids to our show filmmaker and science

1460
01:00:53,970 --> 01:00:51,550
fiction writers written some stuff for

1461
01:00:55,950 --> 01:00:53,980
Lucas featuring Star Wars characters

1462
01:00:58,590 --> 01:00:55,960
check him out I guess the Amazon books

1463
01:01:02,010 --> 01:00:58,600
will find those books yes okay i

1464
01:01:05,040 --> 01:01:02,020
co-wrote with my wife six Star Wars

1465
01:01:07,860 --> 01:01:05,050
sequel novels and they were published

1466
01:01:10,020 --> 01:01:07,870
first by Bantam and then Barnes novel

1467
01:01:11,310 --> 01:01:10,030
put out a hardback edition but we

1468
01:01:15,750 --> 01:01:11,320
started with the glove of Darth Vader

1469
01:01:18,780 --> 01:01:15,760
and the lost city of the Jedi and on and

1470
01:01:21,060 --> 01:01:18,790
on up to profits of the darkside that

1471
01:01:22,950 --> 01:01:21,070
was in the early 90s and and they were

1472
01:01:24,300 --> 01:01:22,960
you know very very popular Lucasfilm

1473
01:01:26,820 --> 01:01:24,310
spotted them

1474
01:01:28,470 --> 01:01:26,830
hey you can mess with that Nicholas

1475
01:01:30,390 --> 01:01:28,480
Redfern of court software of a number of

1476
01:01:32,760 --> 01:01:30,400
books about UFOs and the paranormal and

1477
01:01:34,470 --> 01:01:32,770
we've been talking about the

1478
01:01:36,510 --> 01:01:34,480
relationship between science fiction and

1479
01:01:40,070 --> 01:01:36,520
the paranormal maybe some of those

1480
01:01:43,680 --> 01:01:40,080
science fiction works have to some part

1481
01:01:45,630 --> 01:01:43,690
influenced or we're influenced by real

1482
01:01:47,700 --> 01:01:45,640
mysteries Paul you were about to start

1483
01:01:53,100 --> 01:01:47,710
with a question going back to your book

1484
01:01:55,140 --> 01:01:53,110
science fiction secrets introduction but

1485
01:01:59,400 --> 01:01:55,150
I do love it where it says then let Nick

1486
01:02:03,030 --> 01:01:59,410
Medford heat and serve patrick deserves

1487
01:02:05,100 --> 01:02:03,040
a gold you one of the things that it

1488
01:02:06,480 --> 01:02:05,110
talks about on your blurb is because we

1489
01:02:09,660 --> 01:02:06,490
were talking about the x-files and how

1490
01:02:12,510 --> 01:02:09,670
hugely influential it was in the 1990s

1491
01:02:13,260 --> 01:02:12,520
how did the x-files spin-off series the

1492
01:02:15,930 --> 01:02:13,270
Lone Gunmen

1493
01:02:18,390 --> 01:02:15,940
which was somewhat less successful and

1494
01:02:21,270 --> 01:02:18,400
influence till you read how did that

1495
01:02:24,420 --> 01:02:21,280
series anticipate months in advance the

1496
01:02:25,890 --> 01:02:24,430
terrible tragedy of 9/11 how didn't talk

1497
01:02:27,630 --> 01:02:25,900
a bit about that and what the links

1498
01:02:29,810 --> 01:02:27,640
there might be this is sort of a very

1499
01:02:32,610 --> 01:02:29,820
weird story you know you don't have to

1500
01:02:35,550 --> 01:02:32,620
subscribe as a no you don't to you know

1501
01:02:38,820 --> 01:02:35,560
any conspiracy theories concerning 9/11

1502
01:02:42,030 --> 01:02:38,830
to to realize that it is a very weird

1503
01:02:45,210 --> 01:02:42,040
story what happened was that in in the

1504
01:02:47,850 --> 01:02:45,220
x-files the modern skull would often get

1505
01:02:50,910 --> 01:02:47,860
help from these three guys known as the

1506
01:02:52,980 --> 01:02:50,920
lone gunman and there were Flo Hickey

1507
01:02:53,520 --> 01:02:52,990
Byers and Langley they've got this sort

1508
01:02:55,860 --> 01:02:53,530
of

1509
01:02:58,290 --> 01:02:55,870
geek like trio that would you know but

1510
01:03:00,210 --> 01:02:58,300
full-on conspiracy theorists and you

1511
01:03:03,270 --> 01:03:00,220
know such was their sort of I guess

1512
01:03:04,650 --> 01:03:03,280
appeal in the show that they they got

1513
01:03:06,300 --> 01:03:04,660
the ultimate accolade which was like

1514
01:03:09,150 --> 01:03:06,310
their own series which only

1515
01:03:12,090 --> 01:03:09,160
unfortunately lasted for one series and

1516
01:03:15,450 --> 01:03:12,100
it began it started on March the 4th

1517
01:03:18,360 --> 01:03:15,460
2001 that's when the first episode aired

1518
01:03:21,270 --> 01:03:18,370
now what was interesting about the first

1519
01:03:23,940 --> 01:03:21,280
episode is that it deals with

1520
01:03:28,230 --> 01:03:23,950
an attempt or an actual hijacking of a

1521
01:03:31,680 --> 01:03:28,240
Boeing 727 passenger aircraft which is

1522
01:03:34,950 --> 01:03:31,690
actually hijacked electronically via a

1523
01:03:38,160 --> 01:03:34,960
computer hacker and the plan is to fly

1524
01:03:41,190 --> 01:03:38,170
the 727 into one of the World Trade

1525
01:03:43,380 --> 01:03:41,200
Centers and blame it on a middle-eastern

1526
01:03:46,500 --> 01:03:43,390
dictator who to quote the episode he's

1527
01:03:48,480 --> 01:03:46,510
begging to be smart bombed now in the

1528
01:03:50,460 --> 01:03:48,490
program of course of the last minutes as

1529
01:03:52,590 --> 01:03:50,470
you might expect the lone gunman managed

1530
01:03:55,350 --> 01:03:52,600
to hack into the computer hacker system

1531
01:03:58,470 --> 01:03:55,360
and divert the plane away from the World

1532
01:04:00,270 --> 01:03:58,480
Trade Center rather ironically somewhere

1533
01:04:02,960 --> 01:04:00,280
W is a couple of times already but the

1534
01:04:05,160 --> 01:04:02,970
when they were filming the episode the

1535
01:04:06,840 --> 01:04:05,170
the producers of a show actually had

1536
01:04:08,880 --> 01:04:06,850
permission to use a helicopter to fly

1537
01:04:10,440 --> 01:04:08,890
over Manhattan directly towards the

1538
01:04:14,040 --> 01:04:10,450
World Trade Center to get background

1539
01:04:16,970 --> 01:04:14,050
footage for that particular episode you

1540
01:04:19,860 --> 01:04:16,980
know so you have this scenario of

1541
01:04:22,410 --> 01:04:19,870
somebody basically the story it's like a

1542
01:04:23,760 --> 01:04:22,420
cabal within the US government who want

1543
01:04:25,440 --> 01:04:23,770
to invade the Middle East and one

1544
01:04:29,010 --> 01:04:25,450
justification for doing it so they

1545
01:04:30,720 --> 01:04:29,020
decide to hijack a plane and fly it into

1546
01:04:33,210 --> 01:04:30,730
the World Trade Center which of course

1547
01:04:37,020 --> 01:04:33,220
you know he's a scenario that's been

1548
01:04:39,840 --> 01:04:37,030
presented as an allegedly real scenario

1549
01:04:41,370 --> 01:04:39,850
for the events of 9/11 now as I say you

1550
01:04:43,380 --> 01:04:41,380
don't need to subscribe to those

1551
01:04:45,840 --> 01:04:43,390
conspiracy theories to realize that it's

1552
01:04:48,470 --> 01:04:45,850
sort of bizarre that only six more six

1553
01:04:52,980 --> 01:04:48,480
months before 9/11 occur a television

1554
01:04:56,610 --> 01:04:52,990
sci-fi drama presented that entire

1555
01:04:59,720 --> 01:04:56,620
scenario and what I find interesting is

1556
01:05:02,220 --> 01:04:59,730
you know that the very fact that's in

1557
01:05:05,370 --> 01:05:02,230
mainstream documentaries TV show

1558
01:05:07,089 --> 01:05:05,380
discussions etc about the events of 9/11

1559
01:05:08,799 --> 01:05:07,099
the lone gunman at

1560
01:05:10,630 --> 01:05:08,809
so that was an Amber series along

1561
01:05:12,819 --> 01:05:10,640
Goodman it never actually gets brought

1562
01:05:14,680 --> 01:05:12,829
up now you might think that well people

1563
01:05:17,579 --> 01:05:14,690
think it's gumming it down to bring that

1564
01:05:20,680 --> 01:05:17,589
into it but on the other hand the sheer

1565
01:05:22,479 --> 01:05:20,690
uncanny parallels as I said you don't

1566
01:05:25,200 --> 01:05:22,489
have to subscribe to the sheer uncanny

1567
01:05:27,910 --> 01:05:25,210
parallels between what did happen and

1568
01:05:30,400 --> 01:05:27,920
what was presented in the show six

1569
01:05:32,859 --> 01:05:30,410
months before 9/11 happened you know

1570
01:05:35,710 --> 01:05:32,869
he's worthy of comment at the very least

1571
01:05:37,180 --> 01:05:35,720
I would say that a couple of the

1572
01:05:39,940 --> 01:05:37,190
takeaway from that is a couple of things

1573
01:05:40,839 --> 01:05:39,950
one if we ever catch Osama bin Laden we

1574
01:05:43,029 --> 01:05:40,849
should take a look at this video

1575
01:05:45,309 --> 01:05:43,039
collection to see if he yes you know the

1576
01:05:47,019 --> 01:05:45,319
lone gunman box said we might want to

1577
01:06:01,660 --> 01:05:47,029
see if Dick Cheney has the lone gunman

1578
01:06:03,339 --> 01:06:01,670
box set for commercial reasons I think

1579
01:06:05,349 --> 01:06:03,349
it ran for maybe ten or twelve episodes

1580
01:06:07,029 --> 01:06:05,359
but I suppose the third thing we should

1581
01:06:08,890 --> 01:06:07,039
take away from it is maybe you should

1582
01:06:11,549 --> 01:06:08,900
hire the writers from the lone gunman in

1583
01:06:13,329 --> 01:06:11,559
CIA and the FBI should hire them because

1584
01:06:15,609 --> 01:06:13,339
shouldn't those be the kinds of things

1585
01:06:16,989 --> 01:06:15,619
that the security agency agency should

1586
01:06:18,339 --> 01:06:16,999
be coming up with his scenarios and

1587
01:06:19,690 --> 01:06:18,349
saying hey we should we should figure

1588
01:06:23,049 --> 01:06:19,700
out a plan to deal with this in case

1589
01:06:24,309 --> 01:06:23,059
something tries this besides fired not

1590
01:06:26,769 --> 01:06:24,319
that it's a subject we should joke about

1591
01:06:28,680 --> 01:06:26,779
but you know I think there are there is

1592
01:06:31,749 --> 01:06:28,690
evidence or there have been cases where

1593
01:06:34,299 --> 01:06:31,759
you know the intelligence agencies have

1594
01:06:37,029 --> 01:06:34,309
as I said been inspired by sci-fi

1595
01:06:40,450 --> 01:06:37,039
scenarios now it could be you know just

1596
01:06:42,219 --> 01:06:40,460
some horrible coincidence right but you

1597
01:06:44,529 --> 01:06:42,229
know when you talk in a joking sense

1598
01:06:47,559 --> 01:06:44,539
about who's got white in their video

1599
01:06:50,890 --> 01:06:47,569
collections who's to say anything in the

1600
01:06:52,809 --> 01:06:50,900
fictional world might inspire someone in

1601
01:06:55,450 --> 01:06:52,819
the real world you know we don't know

1602
01:06:57,969 --> 01:06:55,460
you know I I don't I do find it very

1603
01:06:59,920 --> 01:06:57,979
intriguing but the the very close

1604
01:07:02,170 --> 01:06:59,930
similarities between you know the two

1605
01:07:05,829 --> 01:07:02,180
scenarios conversely if you want to get

1606
01:07:09,219 --> 01:07:05,839
really conspiratorial you can imagine a

1607
01:07:11,319 --> 01:07:09,229
situation where someone on the inside is

1608
01:07:14,079 --> 01:07:11,329
hearing all kinds of different plots

1609
01:07:16,539 --> 01:07:14,089
that are being considered and is so

1610
01:07:18,849 --> 01:07:16,549
horrified by one himself that he leaks

1611
01:07:20,690 --> 01:07:18,859
it we were talking about leaking it to

1612
01:07:22,400 --> 01:07:20,700
people in Hollywood but deliberately

1613
01:07:25,370 --> 01:07:22,410
lease it to a writer and says hey what

1614
01:07:28,490 --> 01:07:25,380
about this one - out the idea in hopes

1615
01:07:31,130 --> 01:07:28,500
of them making it impossible for

1616
01:07:32,960 --> 01:07:31,140
somebody to follow that path it's just

1617
01:07:34,420 --> 01:07:32,970
good well just the thought it's kind of

1618
01:07:37,190 --> 01:07:34,430
a reverse of what you were suggesting

1619
01:07:38,569 --> 01:07:37,200
yeah I mean what's interesting this

1620
01:07:41,870 --> 01:07:38,579
isn't directly connected with the lone

1621
01:07:46,160 --> 01:07:41,880
gunman but the lone gunman was a spinoff

1622
01:07:47,990 --> 01:07:46,170
from the x-files now I'm sure a lot of

1623
01:07:50,300 --> 01:07:48,000
people listen to this show love heard of

1624
01:07:52,849 --> 01:07:50,310
Richard Doty who was someone who was a

1625
01:07:55,040 --> 01:07:52,859
you know big player in the UFO scene

1626
01:07:59,060 --> 01:07:55,050
when he worked with the US Air Force in

1627
01:08:01,160 --> 01:07:59,070
the 1980s and Dulci actually wrote the

1628
01:08:02,870 --> 01:08:01,170
screenplay for one particular episode of

1629
01:08:06,200 --> 01:08:02,880
the x-files called the blessing way

1630
01:08:08,079 --> 01:08:06,210
which was aired in 1995 naturally also

1631
01:08:10,880 --> 01:08:08,089
appeared in two episodes one called

1632
01:08:13,819 --> 01:08:10,890
Anasazi another one called Paperclip so

1633
01:08:16,010 --> 01:08:13,829
you know the there are crossovers

1634
01:08:19,039 --> 01:08:16,020
between the UFO subject and the x-files

1635
01:08:21,740 --> 01:08:19,049
yes I didn't Dody actually wrote an

1636
01:08:25,400 --> 01:08:21,750
episode of the x-files I know I didn't

1637
01:08:27,440 --> 01:08:25,410
know that this is rather screenplay and

1638
01:08:31,070 --> 01:08:27,450
this is actually I'm quoting Greg

1639
01:08:34,010 --> 01:08:31,080
bishops project beta now Greg this is

1640
01:08:36,530 --> 01:08:34,020
Greg's actual words years after his AF

1641
01:08:38,420 --> 01:08:36,540
OSI involvement Doty's career reached an

1642
01:08:40,039 --> 01:08:38,430
apotheosis of sorts when he was actually

1643
01:08:42,499 --> 01:08:40,049
invited to become a consultant for the

1644
01:08:44,630 --> 01:08:42,509
x-files a position he said he held of 94

1645
01:08:46,430 --> 01:08:44,640
to 96 in time he also wrote the

1646
01:08:49,010 --> 01:08:46,440
screenplay for an episode the blessing

1647
01:08:51,440 --> 01:08:49,020
way which aired on September 22 1995

1648
01:08:53,690 --> 01:08:51,450
although producer Chris Carr to receive

1649
01:08:56,209 --> 01:08:53,700
writing credits though he also appeared

1650
01:08:58,999 --> 01:08:56,219
as an extra in two episodes Anasazi

1651
01:09:02,269 --> 01:08:59,009
which aired on May 19 1995 and

1652
01:09:04,490 --> 01:09:02,279
paperclips shown on September 29 of that

1653
01:09:05,840 --> 01:09:04,500
year he tried to write another but says

1654
01:09:08,059 --> 01:09:05,850
that it was killed by a government

1655
01:09:10,099 --> 01:09:08,069
agency that he was required to run

1656
01:09:12,620 --> 01:09:10,109
everything past before turning any of it

1657
01:09:15,620 --> 01:09:12,630
into production end of quote from Greg

1658
01:09:17,660 --> 01:09:15,630
so I'm quoting Greg's words on on what

1659
01:09:23,510 --> 01:09:17,670
he learns so basically if we have to

1660
01:09:25,309 --> 01:09:23,520
yell at somebody at spring just stress

1661
01:09:28,130 --> 01:09:25,319
that you know Greg did the research on

1662
01:09:29,479 --> 01:09:28,140
this but I find it interesting but the

1663
01:09:32,450 --> 01:09:29,489
world of the x-files

1664
01:09:34,039 --> 01:09:32,460
you know had this kind of turn fro back

1665
01:09:34,459 --> 01:09:34,049
and forth with the official world as

1666
01:09:36,769 --> 01:09:34,469
well

1667
01:09:39,050 --> 01:09:36,779
sandi longer just spinoff from the

1668
01:09:40,849 --> 01:09:39,060
x-files you know whenever any Richard

1669
01:09:42,439 --> 01:09:40,859
Doty story comes up I know you guys

1670
01:09:45,289 --> 01:09:42,449
can't see me right now but I can't help

1671
01:09:47,450 --> 01:09:45,299
but smile then it's it's not always a

1672
01:09:48,860 --> 01:09:47,460
good smile but you you know I would

1673
01:09:50,209 --> 01:09:48,870
check I would interview everybody

1674
01:09:52,579 --> 01:09:50,219
involved just to make sure that he

1675
01:09:54,170 --> 01:09:52,589
actually anything that he says he did he

1676
01:09:56,450 --> 01:09:54,180
actually did I'd want to see the embassy

1677
01:09:58,070 --> 01:09:56,460
where he walks across the screen before

1678
01:10:02,600 --> 01:09:58,080
I would believe that Richard Doty was

1679
01:10:04,550 --> 01:10:02,610
actually there one other thing Greg's

1680
01:10:06,320 --> 01:10:04,560
book in front of me hey you know when we

1681
01:10:07,700 --> 01:10:06,330
were sort of planning this episode I

1682
01:10:09,860 --> 01:10:07,710
thought I'll trying to get what I can

1683
01:10:12,380 --> 01:10:09,870
I've got project base in front of me and

1684
01:10:14,810 --> 01:10:12,390
you know I'm presuming that you know

1685
01:10:16,729 --> 01:10:14,820
checks are made you know that Greg can't

1686
01:10:20,959 --> 01:10:16,739
be trusted because he's a dissipation

1687
01:10:22,010 --> 01:10:20,969
himself so we all I suppose there's one

1688
01:10:24,650 --> 01:10:22,020
other thing I wanted to ask you about

1689
01:10:27,050 --> 01:10:24,660
Nick about your particular book in

1690
01:10:29,840 --> 01:10:27,060
particular the name that certainly would

1691
01:10:32,180 --> 01:10:29,850
be familiar to you gene and an old time

1692
01:10:34,040 --> 01:10:32,190
flying sorceress but should be probably

1693
01:10:35,870 --> 01:10:34,050
more familiar to people today and that's

1694
01:10:37,970 --> 01:10:35,880
Ray Palmer you've got a chapter on Ray

1695
01:10:39,860 --> 01:10:37,980
Palmer in your book right Nick perhaps

1696
01:10:42,560 --> 01:10:39,870
you can tie that in a bit but briefly

1697
01:10:44,209 --> 01:10:42,570
you know the idea the Palmer's the

1698
01:10:46,580 --> 01:10:44,219
shaver mystery all that sort of stuff

1699
01:10:49,400 --> 01:10:46,590
the Darrow's and how that ties into sort

1700
01:10:51,709 --> 01:10:49,410
of hesitant the crypto terrestrials and

1701
01:10:52,820 --> 01:10:51,719
and talk a bit about those stories

1702
01:10:56,830 --> 01:10:52,830
science fiction and how that might

1703
01:10:56,840 --> 01:11:00,340
[Music]

1704
01:11:06,709 --> 01:11:04,400
is there a secret UFO agenda to strange

1705
01:11:09,050 --> 01:11:06,719
creatures from the darkest corners of

1706
01:11:11,810 --> 01:11:09,060
the mind roam the earth is there

1707
01:11:15,170 --> 01:11:11,820
evidence for mind control time travel or

1708
01:11:16,790 --> 01:11:15,180
devious government conspiracies find out

1709
01:11:19,430 --> 01:11:16,800
the inside scoop on the latest

1710
01:11:22,040 --> 01:11:19,440
conspiracies paranormal activity and

1711
01:11:24,800 --> 01:11:22,050
important phenomena when you subscribe

1712
01:11:27,650 --> 01:11:24,810
to Tim Beckley's conspiracy girl it's

1713
01:11:30,290 --> 01:11:27,660
jam-packed with stories special book and

1714
01:11:32,570 --> 01:11:30,300
DVD promotions and the best news is

1715
01:11:35,570 --> 01:11:32,580
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1716
01:11:39,080 --> 01:11:35,580
mailbox plus a bonus free email

1717
01:11:40,940 --> 01:11:39,090
newsletter sent out every Friday simply

1718
01:11:45,440 --> 01:11:40,950
sent an email with your name and address

1719
01:11:50,300 --> 01:11:45,450
to Mister UFO at web TV dotnet that's

1720
01:11:55,840 --> 01:11:50,310
mr. UFO at web TV dotnet find out what

1721
01:12:00,310 --> 01:11:58,850
hi this is meet Pope you're listening to

1722
01:12:03,260 --> 01:12:00,320
the parrot talk

1723
01:12:05,300 --> 01:12:03,270
we have Nicolas Redfern and paul davids

1724
01:12:08,000 --> 01:12:05,310
and Paul Kimball is our special guest

1725
01:12:10,310 --> 01:12:08,010
toast and if anyone cares it's ages me

1726
01:12:11,270 --> 01:12:10,320
I knew Richard shaver very well I knew

1727
01:12:13,340 --> 01:12:11,280
Ray Palmer

1728
01:12:15,080 --> 01:12:13,350
not so well but I actually met him once

1729
01:12:17,720 --> 01:12:15,090
or twice talked to him on the phone

1730
01:12:19,790 --> 01:12:17,730
got him on radio shows where he was

1731
01:12:21,680 --> 01:12:19,800
interviewed on the subject was this was

1732
01:12:25,400 --> 01:12:21,690
the last few years before he died in the

1733
01:12:27,770 --> 01:12:25,410
1970s with that preamble Nicholas

1734
01:12:29,990 --> 01:12:27,780
Redfern and tell us about that already ,

1735
01:12:32,210 --> 01:12:30,000
he was actually born a hundred years ago

1736
01:12:34,610 --> 01:12:32,220
this year we had a when he was a child

1737
01:12:38,600 --> 01:12:34,620
he developed a deep interest in science

1738
01:12:41,030 --> 01:12:38,610
fiction and eventually became the editor

1739
01:12:43,400 --> 01:12:41,040
of amazing stories one of the one of the

1740
01:12:46,340 --> 01:12:43,410
more popular science fiction magazines

1741
01:12:50,060 --> 01:12:46,350
of the 1930s one of the things that

1742
01:12:52,490 --> 01:12:50,070
surfaced in the 1940s - Palmer from this

1743
01:12:55,970 --> 01:12:52,500
guy Richard shaver was like a series of

1744
01:12:59,750 --> 01:12:55,980
fantastic stories tales ramblings if you

1745
01:13:02,300 --> 01:12:59,760
like concerning an alleged highly

1746
01:13:04,940 --> 01:13:02,310
advanced but very ancient race of

1747
01:13:07,010 --> 01:13:04,950
indigenous humanoids that had gone

1748
01:13:08,960 --> 01:13:07,020
underground a long long time ago and

1749
01:13:11,060 --> 01:13:08,970
that lived amongst us and that surfaced

1750
01:13:12,710 --> 01:13:11,070
from time to time in other words you

1751
01:13:15,260 --> 01:13:12,720
know they they were sort of precursors

1752
01:13:16,850 --> 01:13:15,270
for the UFO phenomenon that he was sort

1753
01:13:18,910 --> 01:13:16,860
of perceiving is not being alien but

1754
01:13:22,220 --> 01:13:18,920
being evidence of a very ancient

1755
01:13:23,780 --> 01:13:22,230
terrestrial society that you know was

1756
01:13:26,780 --> 01:13:23,790
forced underground by this infestation

1757
01:13:29,450 --> 01:13:26,790
known as a human race and the the whole

1758
01:13:32,330 --> 01:13:29,460
shaver mystery I mean generated a

1759
01:13:35,300 --> 01:13:32,340
massive cult following literally massive

1760
01:13:35,840 --> 01:13:35,310
which to an extent still continues to

1761
01:13:39,380 --> 01:13:35,850
this day

1762
01:13:41,540 --> 01:13:39,390
now Palmer was someone who sort of

1763
01:13:43,370 --> 01:13:41,550
shifted effortlessly between the worlds

1764
01:13:46,250 --> 01:13:43,380
of science fiction and ufology because

1765
01:13:47,840 --> 01:13:46,260
he actually published in co-wrote none

1766
01:13:49,910 --> 01:13:47,850
other than Kenneth Arnold's book the

1767
01:13:52,490 --> 01:13:49,920
coming of the resources which talked

1768
01:13:55,490 --> 01:13:52,500
about Kenneth Arnold's flying saucer

1769
01:13:58,920 --> 01:13:55,500
sighting over mo crania to publish fate

1770
01:14:02,020 --> 01:13:58,930
magazine dimly yep on this fake magazine

1771
01:14:04,420 --> 01:14:02,030
created fate before Palmer dissolved the

1772
01:14:06,040 --> 01:14:04,430
relationship later on correct yes so in

1773
01:14:08,140 --> 01:14:06,050
other words you have this person who was

1774
01:14:10,810 --> 01:14:08,150
one of the most formative people within

1775
01:14:14,110 --> 01:14:10,820
science fiction in the 30s and 40s and

1776
01:14:16,240 --> 01:14:14,120
who arguably we may never have heard of

1777
01:14:19,390 --> 01:14:16,250
Kenneth Arnold sightings you know in

1778
01:14:20,200 --> 01:14:19,400
terms of its perpetuation had Palmer not

1779
01:14:22,720 --> 01:14:20,210
published

1780
01:14:26,380 --> 01:14:22,730
Arnold's book and actually got hold of

1781
01:14:28,450 --> 01:14:26,390
Karma's FBI file which talks about his

1782
01:14:30,580 --> 01:14:28,460
involvement in a very weird story that

1783
01:14:35,320 --> 01:14:30,590
of Maury island when some sort of UFO

1784
01:14:37,870 --> 01:14:35,330
allegedly at least exploded over Tacoma

1785
01:14:40,320 --> 01:14:37,880
Harbor Tacoma in Washington State in the

1786
01:14:43,570 --> 01:14:40,330
summer of 47 a very weird story

1787
01:14:45,340 --> 01:14:43,580
involving a man named Fred Chrisman who

1788
01:14:47,050 --> 01:14:45,350
was also linked to the Kennedy

1789
01:14:49,450 --> 01:14:47,060
assassination of all things years later

1790
01:14:53,080 --> 01:14:49,460
so in other words Palmer was someone who

1791
01:14:55,870 --> 01:14:53,090
moved in very weird circles now to kind

1792
01:14:58,930 --> 01:14:55,880
of sort of just quickly go on from there

1793
01:15:01,000 --> 01:14:58,940
Palmer was obviously someone who was was

1794
01:15:04,450 --> 01:15:01,010
linked with this crashed UFO story at

1795
01:15:07,630 --> 01:15:04,460
Tacoma which was I actually investigated

1796
01:15:10,690 --> 01:15:07,640
by Kenneth Arnold this was 47 in the

1797
01:15:13,510 --> 01:15:10,700
following year a British author named

1798
01:15:16,300 --> 01:15:13,520
Bernhard Newman published a novel in

1799
01:15:19,090 --> 01:15:16,310
1948 called the flying saucer which also

1800
01:15:20,650 --> 01:15:19,100
dealt with crashed UFOs Newman's book is

1801
01:15:23,410 --> 01:15:20,660
an interesting one because he had

1802
01:15:26,080 --> 01:15:23,420
numerous ties to the British government

1803
01:15:28,210 --> 01:15:26,090
and the world of intelligence and a lot

1804
01:15:30,010 --> 01:15:28,220
of people are bypassed or forgotten

1805
01:15:32,500 --> 01:15:30,020
about or just don't play know about

1806
01:15:36,520 --> 01:15:32,510
Vernon Newman's novel but in this

1807
01:15:38,740 --> 01:15:36,530
particular story what you have is again

1808
01:15:41,320 --> 01:15:38,750
like a cabal within the governments and

1809
01:15:43,420 --> 01:15:41,330
what they decide to do they stage three

1810
01:15:45,370 --> 01:15:43,430
UFO crashes they build what look like

1811
01:15:47,710 --> 01:15:45,380
advanced aircraft flying saucer type

1812
01:15:49,660 --> 01:15:47,720
devices they crashed one in Britain one

1813
01:15:52,720 --> 01:15:49,670
in Russia and one in New Mexico of all

1814
01:15:56,200 --> 01:15:52,730
places what they do they create faked

1815
01:15:58,750 --> 01:15:56,210
alien bodies by using body parts from

1816
01:16:01,210 --> 01:15:58,760
exotic animals and they even create a

1817
01:16:04,300 --> 01:16:01,220
staged alien autopsy to try and convince

1818
01:16:06,670 --> 01:16:04,310
the world that aliens have crashed and

1819
01:16:08,620 --> 01:16:06,680
the government has recovered them in

1820
01:16:11,470 --> 01:16:08,630
addition to that the alien presence

1821
01:16:12,010 --> 01:16:11,480
which is what they try and instilling in

1822
01:16:14,680 --> 01:16:12,020
the me

1823
01:16:17,170 --> 01:16:14,690
the public etc leads to the creation of

1824
01:16:19,780 --> 01:16:17,180
like a new world order which again is

1825
01:16:22,180 --> 01:16:19,790
something that is widely discussed again

1826
01:16:24,520 --> 01:16:22,190
some of the more extreme conspiracy

1827
01:16:26,260 --> 01:16:24,530
websites and chat rooms the idea that

1828
01:16:29,710 --> 01:16:26,270
there's going to be some sort of faked

1829
01:16:30,610 --> 01:16:29,720
alien invasion to create and lead to a

1830
01:16:33,130 --> 01:16:30,620
new world order

1831
01:16:34,690 --> 01:16:33,140
that's something but new and novel talks

1832
01:16:37,060 --> 01:16:34,700
about sixty years ago

1833
01:16:39,310 --> 01:16:37,070
in of all places New Mexico with an

1834
01:16:41,410 --> 01:16:39,320
alien autopsy film you know he was

1835
01:16:43,900 --> 01:16:41,420
someone who moved effortlessly again

1836
01:16:45,760 --> 01:16:43,910
between science fiction and the secret

1837
01:16:48,940 --> 01:16:45,770
world of officialdom in the same way

1838
01:16:51,280 --> 01:16:48,950
that Ray Palmer you know was involved in

1839
01:16:53,830 --> 01:16:51,290
sci-fi but then became the subject of an

1840
01:16:55,750 --> 01:16:53,840
FBI file because of this weird Maury

1841
01:16:57,700 --> 01:16:55,760
Island case and all in the same

1842
01:17:00,210 --> 01:16:57,710
timeframe and you know I have to wonder

1843
01:17:03,250 --> 01:17:00,220
if there was and you know some sort of

1844
01:17:05,140 --> 01:17:03,260
linkage in all this you know in these

1845
01:17:07,840 --> 01:17:05,150
early years so to speak the great thing

1846
01:17:10,180 --> 01:17:07,850
about Ray Palmer and I can't resist the

1847
01:17:13,660 --> 01:17:10,190
opportunity because it never comes out

1848
01:17:16,360 --> 01:17:13,670
but when comics changed from the Golden

1849
01:17:18,940 --> 01:17:16,370
Age that was prevalent in the 40s and

1850
01:17:20,320 --> 01:17:18,950
50s of superheroes to these sort of what

1851
01:17:22,240 --> 01:17:20,330
they call the Silver Age where they kind

1852
01:17:24,940 --> 01:17:22,250
of rewrote the biography of all the

1853
01:17:27,070 --> 01:17:24,950
superheroes one of my favorites of all

1854
01:17:29,320 --> 01:17:27,080
time is a superhero known as the atom

1855
01:17:32,200 --> 01:17:29,330
who can shrink himself to microscopic

1856
01:17:34,750 --> 01:17:32,210
subatomic size and his his name the

1857
01:17:37,060 --> 01:17:34,760
character's name is Ray Palmer when Gil

1858
01:17:39,130 --> 01:17:37,070
Kane and Gardner Fox were creating him

1859
01:17:41,530 --> 01:17:39,140
they named this character after Ray

1860
01:17:42,640 --> 01:17:41,540
Palmer and he discovers this material

1861
01:17:44,710 --> 01:17:42,650
that allows him to create he's a

1862
01:17:46,540 --> 01:17:44,720
physicist so he's a scientist and he

1863
01:17:48,550 --> 01:17:46,550
discovers this material that allows him

1864
01:17:51,490 --> 01:17:48,560
to create a belt that allows him to

1865
01:17:54,070 --> 01:17:51,500
shrink down while he's flunking in caves

1866
01:17:55,840 --> 01:17:54,080
under the earth so I there's a sort of

1867
01:17:58,360 --> 01:17:55,850
tie in there between science fiction and

1868
01:18:00,490 --> 01:17:58,370
the way comics were reinvented I'm sorry

1869
01:18:02,080 --> 01:18:00,500
I totally it's apropos of nothing but

1870
01:18:03,850 --> 01:18:02,090
the atom is one of my favorite comic

1871
01:18:06,670 --> 01:18:03,860
book characters so I thought I'd

1872
01:18:08,950 --> 01:18:06,680
mentioned that Paul I want to ask you

1873
01:18:11,230 --> 01:18:08,960
going back to the War of the Worlds not

1874
01:18:12,730 --> 01:18:11,240
the right Suisse remake but they written

1875
01:18:15,340 --> 01:18:12,740
not even the original film but going

1876
01:18:17,380 --> 01:18:15,350
back right to one of my heroes Orson

1877
01:18:19,360 --> 01:18:17,390
Welles and the radio drama right people

1878
01:18:21,760 --> 01:18:19,370
will often ask again let's work on the

1879
01:18:24,649 --> 01:18:21,770
assumption that that aliens are here and

1880
01:18:26,060 --> 01:18:24,659
the government is keeping it a secret

1881
01:18:27,590 --> 01:18:26,070
and then you come up with the why

1882
01:18:31,070 --> 01:18:27,600
question well why would the government

1883
01:18:34,100 --> 01:18:31,080
keep that a secret and do you think that

1884
01:18:36,830 --> 01:18:34,110
might have something to do with the

1885
01:18:39,590 --> 01:18:36,840
reaction that happened after orson

1886
01:18:41,540 --> 01:18:39,600
welles ran that radio play where there

1887
01:18:43,790 --> 01:18:41,550
was panic in the streets as it were

1888
01:18:46,459 --> 01:18:43,800
throughout parts of the United States

1889
01:18:48,680 --> 01:18:46,469
and talk a bit about that just the idea

1890
01:18:50,450 --> 01:18:48,690
that maybe we're not the people in

1891
01:18:52,399 --> 01:18:50,460
government would look and say we're not

1892
01:18:54,350 --> 01:18:52,409
ready for it we weren't ready for it

1893
01:18:56,060 --> 01:18:54,360
then and we're still not ready for it

1894
01:18:59,360 --> 01:18:56,070
now is that is that a possibility do

1895
01:19:02,360 --> 01:18:59,370
they still have that was an obvious

1896
01:19:04,790 --> 01:19:02,370
result of voice and well since 1938

1897
01:19:07,010 --> 01:19:04,800
radio broadcast I believe it was I

1898
01:19:09,500 --> 01:19:07,020
believe it was well 38 would have put

1899
01:19:11,750 --> 01:19:09,510
what 19 is before us or some was maybe

1900
01:19:15,110 --> 01:19:11,760
it was 37 does anybody know is that

1901
01:19:16,879 --> 01:19:15,120
about a decade before Roswell Orson

1902
01:19:19,939 --> 01:19:16,889
Welles scared the hell out of a lot of

1903
01:19:22,370 --> 01:19:19,949
people who turned in his war the world

1904
01:19:24,680 --> 01:19:22,380
broadcast in the middle and minute is

1905
01:19:27,080 --> 01:19:24,690
disclaimers beginning explaining that it

1906
01:19:33,080 --> 01:19:27,090
was you know that it was all just a

1907
01:19:34,820 --> 01:19:33,090
dramatization it was yeah and there were

1908
01:19:36,649 --> 01:19:34,830
reports of stuff panic as a matter of

1909
01:19:38,540 --> 01:19:36,659
fact there was a wonderful television

1910
01:19:40,250 --> 01:19:38,550
when we made absolutely terrific about

1911
01:19:42,709 --> 01:19:40,260
that called the make that panicked

1912
01:19:45,110 --> 01:19:42,719
America and if anybody can track that

1913
01:19:46,070 --> 01:19:45,120
day and I highly highly recommend that

1914
01:19:49,459 --> 01:19:46,080
picture it

1915
01:19:53,360 --> 01:19:49,469
people really conclusion to that that if

1916
01:19:56,330 --> 01:19:53,370
there ever were alien visitation or an

1917
01:19:58,370 --> 01:19:56,340
attack on any scale then it would cause

1918
01:20:01,280 --> 01:19:58,380
absolute bellows this people would be

1919
01:20:03,590 --> 01:20:01,290
stowed and what you know that's all very

1920
01:20:06,770 --> 01:20:03,600
very very old now we you know we've had

1921
01:20:09,080 --> 01:20:06,780
almost 17 years of acclamation since

1922
01:20:12,379 --> 01:20:09,090
then generations have gone by you know

1923
01:20:14,149 --> 01:20:12,389
kids growing up today you ask them and

1924
01:20:17,810 --> 01:20:14,159
they say oh everybody knows that there's

1925
01:20:20,330 --> 01:20:17,820
aliens well you know do that and for how

1926
01:20:22,879 --> 01:20:20,340
long is everybody and all kids know that

1927
01:20:24,950 --> 01:20:22,889
they're they assume the things I think

1928
01:20:26,750 --> 01:20:24,960
the fact that the idea that the

1929
01:20:29,330 --> 01:20:26,760
government is covering it up

1930
01:20:32,479 --> 01:20:29,340
it's beyond popular culture I mean is

1931
01:20:35,570 --> 01:20:32,489
the concept is just everywhere and of

1932
01:20:38,209 --> 01:20:35,580
course we've had some major authorities

1933
01:20:40,700 --> 01:20:38,219
people with experience and great

1934
01:20:43,370 --> 01:20:40,710
mutation tell us this is true absolutely

1935
01:20:45,470 --> 01:20:43,380
point-blank straight after talking and

1936
01:20:50,180 --> 01:20:45,480
that would include astronaut Gordon

1937
01:20:52,850 --> 01:20:50,190
Cooper of the mercury astronaut program

1938
01:20:54,500 --> 01:20:52,860
one of the first astronauts and of

1939
01:20:56,560 --> 01:20:54,510
course it includes Edgar Mitchell who

1940
01:20:59,870 --> 01:20:56,570
walked on the moon who is said

1941
01:21:03,350 --> 01:20:59,880
absolutely flat out Roswell was a case

1942
01:21:06,410 --> 01:21:03,360
of an extraterrestrial crash they did

1943
01:21:09,740 --> 01:21:06,420
recover hardware he has been briefed on

1944
01:21:11,840 --> 01:21:09,750
it at very high levels he says people

1945
01:21:14,180 --> 01:21:11,850
whose word he has every reason to be too

1946
01:21:17,209 --> 01:21:14,190
up to trust you have the same thing from

1947
01:21:20,360 --> 01:21:17,219
Paul Hellyer the defense minister former

1948
01:21:22,160 --> 01:21:20,370
defense minister of Canada who after not

1949
01:21:25,280 --> 01:21:22,170
having taken these issues seriously for

1950
01:21:27,410 --> 01:21:25,290
many many years found it all came to his

1951
01:21:31,250 --> 01:21:27,420
attention a way that made it not only

1952
01:21:33,200 --> 01:21:31,260
credible to him totally compelling said

1953
01:21:35,780 --> 01:21:33,210
the public had to be informed of course

1954
01:21:38,330 --> 01:21:35,790
there was also be the influence of

1955
01:21:41,180 --> 01:21:38,340
colonel philip courses book that will

1956
01:21:43,700 --> 01:21:41,190
co-written by bill burdens called the

1957
01:21:45,650 --> 01:21:43,710
day after rights law in which year you

1958
01:21:48,050 --> 01:21:45,660
may have lieutenant protocol of course

1959
01:21:51,350 --> 01:21:48,060
so someone with a publicly known history

1960
01:21:54,070 --> 01:21:51,360
from World War two who had an important

1961
01:21:57,260 --> 01:21:54,080
position in Italy after the war for

1962
01:22:01,580 --> 01:21:57,270
security for the Allies and securing

1963
01:22:03,520 --> 01:22:01,590
Italy and it was trusted by many by

1964
01:22:06,439 --> 01:22:03,530
senators such as from German

1965
01:22:09,800 --> 01:22:06,449
right-wingers who at the end of his life

1966
01:22:12,580 --> 01:22:09,810
in the last few years said flat-out this

1967
01:22:16,640 --> 01:22:12,590
is not fiction the aliens are here

1968
01:22:19,790 --> 01:22:16,650
Roswell was real it was extraterrestrial

1969
01:22:21,200 --> 01:22:19,800
then it has changed the world in the

1970
01:22:23,390 --> 01:22:21,210
discoveries that have been made as a

1971
01:22:26,750 --> 01:22:23,400
result of it because by telling you we

1972
01:22:28,370 --> 01:22:26,760
would have to have told our adversaries

1973
01:22:31,430 --> 01:22:28,380
so it was a secret

1974
01:22:32,540 --> 01:22:31,440
we kept from ourselves so with all of

1975
01:22:36,110 --> 01:22:32,550
these people

1976
01:22:38,630 --> 01:22:36,120
flat out setting it's a fact and with

1977
01:22:41,840 --> 01:22:38,640
popular culture stating it's a fact

1978
01:22:44,540 --> 01:22:41,850
you've got an enormous disconnect

1979
01:22:46,850 --> 01:22:44,550
between all of that that were bashed

1980
01:22:49,160 --> 01:22:46,860
with and on the other hand the kind of

1981
01:22:51,200 --> 01:22:49,170
political reaction where you know Bill

1982
01:22:51,960 --> 01:22:51,210
Clinton will go on our tape television

1983
01:22:54,450 --> 01:22:51,970
or radio talk

1984
01:22:56,310 --> 01:22:54,460
show and say doesn't think that they're

1985
01:22:58,620 --> 01:22:56,320
real yes

1986
01:23:01,200 --> 01:22:58,630
maybe they exist way out there in

1987
01:23:03,750 --> 01:23:01,210
another star system chances are they

1988
01:23:07,410 --> 01:23:03,760
probably do but we don't know of any way

1989
01:23:09,840 --> 01:23:07,420
they could get here from there and he

1990
01:23:12,180 --> 01:23:09,850
just something that's true well I just

1991
01:23:14,910 --> 01:23:12,190
don't think a full resident Clinton is

1992
01:23:17,550 --> 01:23:14,920
being honest on that it's interesting

1993
01:23:20,130 --> 01:23:17,560
you can get dragged down into the rabbit

1994
01:23:22,080 --> 01:23:20,140
hole of talking about all the that kind

1995
01:23:24,750 --> 01:23:22,090
of stuff that's a whole show in and of

1996
01:23:26,880 --> 01:23:24,760
itself I've written it as you know Paul

1997
01:23:27,960 --> 01:23:26,890
that I have a different view of some of

1998
01:23:30,660 --> 01:23:27,970
these people I've written extensively

1999
01:23:33,060 --> 01:23:30,670
about Paul Hellyer who while I don't

2000
01:23:35,640 --> 01:23:33,070
know personally I know quite well in its

2001
01:23:38,250 --> 01:23:35,650
history and and say it's interesting

2002
01:23:39,600 --> 01:23:38,260
because you get Corso without talking at

2003
01:23:42,780 --> 01:23:39,610
great length about course so it's worth

2004
01:23:44,730 --> 01:23:42,790
mentioning that most UFO researchers

2005
01:23:47,490 --> 01:23:44,740
including people like Kevin Randall and

2006
01:23:49,170 --> 01:23:47,500
Stan Freedman who absolutely support I

2007
01:23:51,360 --> 01:23:49,180
mean not only support their they were

2008
01:23:53,280 --> 01:23:51,370
the guys who drove the Roswell story for

2009
01:23:55,200 --> 01:23:53,290
so many years and soldier and they don't

2010
01:23:57,480 --> 01:23:55,210
believe they don't believe still of

2011
01:23:59,520 --> 01:23:57,490
course no they don't work or so say so

2012
01:24:06,690 --> 01:23:59,530
yeah well but they're those that feel

2013
01:24:08,250 --> 01:24:06,700
that they are absolutely going into a

2014
01:24:10,260 --> 01:24:08,260
philip corso episode which is another

2015
01:24:11,970 --> 01:24:10,270
episode all on its own I'm just pointing

2016
01:24:14,310 --> 01:24:11,980
out that there is I'm not going to talk

2017
01:24:16,610 --> 01:24:14,320
about Mitchell or Cooper the astronauts

2018
01:24:19,560 --> 01:24:16,620
but particularly with Hellyer who is a

2019
01:24:21,720 --> 01:24:19,570
go to my blog and read my opinions on

2020
01:24:24,360 --> 01:24:21,730
how your and a whole bag of worms for me

2021
01:24:26,580 --> 01:24:24,370
it shouldn't come down to whether any

2022
01:24:27,960 --> 01:24:26,590
particular individual whether it's Paul

2023
01:24:29,580 --> 01:24:27,970
Hellyer and ger Mitchell or whatever

2024
01:24:31,260 --> 01:24:29,590
says something is true or something is

2025
01:24:34,950 --> 01:24:31,270
not true to me it always comes down to

2026
01:24:37,920 --> 01:24:34,960
the evidence and so is there are aliens

2027
01:24:39,990 --> 01:24:37,930
from Zeta Reticuli visiting us let's see

2028
01:24:41,430 --> 01:24:40,000
the evidence let's talk about let's keep

2029
01:24:43,260 --> 01:24:41,440
it in the realm of the evidence and not

2030
01:24:44,940 --> 01:24:43,270
whether somebody's looked at the

2031
01:24:46,530 --> 01:24:44,950
evidence that is there unless they've

2032
01:24:49,440 --> 01:24:46,540
actually looked at you know crash flying

2033
01:24:51,240 --> 01:24:49,450
saucers or something but let's let's

2034
01:24:52,860 --> 01:24:51,250
leave their opinions aside from it and

2035
01:24:54,960 --> 01:24:52,870
let's just look at the evidence let's

2036
01:24:56,640 --> 01:24:54,970
keep the people out of it there's a boat

2037
01:24:57,690 --> 01:24:56,650
you know then appeal to Authority if you

2038
01:24:59,610 --> 01:24:57,700
oh oh well so-and-so

2039
01:25:01,830 --> 01:24:59,620
says that it's real so it must be real

2040
01:25:03,989 --> 01:25:01,840
let's just all decide on our own whether

2041
01:25:08,009 --> 01:25:03,999
looking at the evidence objectively

2042
01:25:10,229 --> 01:25:08,019
conclusions we can draw from it disagree

2043
01:25:11,669 --> 01:25:10,239
with you I get it agree with you

2044
01:25:13,500 --> 01:25:11,679
absolutely disagree with you

2045
01:25:17,549 --> 01:25:13,510
particularly when it comes to men like

2046
01:25:22,379 --> 01:25:17,559
Gordon Cooper and Edgar Mitchell because

2047
01:25:26,160 --> 01:25:22,389
there has been so much ridicule and so

2048
01:25:29,279 --> 01:25:26,170
much at stake in any person with a

2049
01:25:31,859 --> 01:25:29,289
reputation of good reputation and

2050
01:25:32,850 --> 01:25:31,869
honorable reputation in this

2051
01:25:36,299 --> 01:25:32,860
establishment

2052
01:25:38,520 --> 01:25:36,309
coming forward the view that it is not

2053
01:25:41,910 --> 01:25:38,530
only unpopular but which has been

2054
01:25:45,149 --> 01:25:41,920
actively discredited and intentionally

2055
01:25:48,120 --> 01:25:45,159
discredited with a lot of work a lot of

2056
01:25:50,189 --> 01:25:48,130
money for 50 years or more going back to

2057
01:25:52,169 --> 01:25:50,199
the Robertson panel committee saying we

2058
01:25:55,140 --> 01:25:52,179
got it debunked this idea let's get help

2059
01:25:58,140 --> 01:25:55,150
from Hollywood to debunk it with all

2060
01:26:00,509 --> 01:25:58,150
that when you do have a person stature

2061
01:26:03,089 --> 01:26:00,519
to come forward and say you know what

2062
01:26:04,620 --> 01:26:03,099
you guys are being allowed to I've been

2063
01:26:09,919 --> 01:26:04,630
briefed I've been there I've been in

2064
01:26:12,719 --> 01:26:09,929
space I've made this my entire life and

2065
01:26:14,939 --> 01:26:12,729
I'm coming forward to tell you you're in

2066
01:26:17,879 --> 01:26:14,949
snooker that counts a whole lot more

2067
01:26:19,169 --> 01:26:17,889
than telling the general public all you

2068
01:26:21,779 --> 01:26:19,179
just go out there look at the evidence

2069
01:26:23,489 --> 01:26:21,789
and decide for yourself speaks what

2070
01:26:25,350 --> 01:26:23,499
evidence are you gonna look at I could

2071
01:26:28,049 --> 01:26:25,360
tell you what evidence to look at I

2072
01:26:30,689 --> 01:26:28,059
could take you know four hours to name a

2073
01:26:32,339 --> 01:26:30,699
lot more than the ten cases that you did

2074
01:26:34,350 --> 01:26:32,349
in your film which I applaud you for

2075
01:26:38,850 --> 01:26:34,360
which were all great cases which all

2076
01:26:41,069 --> 01:26:38,860
help make the case but no I mean we're

2077
01:26:44,189 --> 01:26:41,079
we're we're on different sides of this

2078
01:26:47,580 --> 01:26:44,199
question Paul uses an agnostic I'm

2079
01:26:49,890 --> 01:26:47,590
anything but an agnostic now I and I

2080
01:26:52,979 --> 01:26:49,900
feel that the government that has

2081
01:26:56,069 --> 01:26:52,989
withheld this that the bunka sub-jail

2082
01:26:58,739 --> 01:26:56,079
Italy that has ridiculed people that has

2083
01:27:02,549 --> 01:26:58,749
ruined reputations has a lot to answer

2084
01:27:04,439 --> 01:27:02,559
for what it's done well you know what

2085
01:27:10,229 --> 01:27:04,449
it's done in with home is what it's done

2086
01:27:13,589 --> 01:27:10,239
to to the human race and I don't know I

2087
01:27:15,100 --> 01:27:13,599
think I I I don't know how you get to be

2088
01:27:18,970 --> 01:27:15,110
where you are right now I read all you

2089
01:27:20,680 --> 01:27:18,980
but I did see your film on the 10 best

2090
01:27:23,979 --> 01:27:20,690
cases which I thought was absolutely

2091
01:27:26,530 --> 01:27:23,989
compelling so what turns you into an

2092
01:27:34,030 --> 01:27:26,540
agnostic having been where you've been

2093
01:27:36,820 --> 01:27:34,040
and knowing which no reality to the UFO

2094
01:27:38,770 --> 01:27:36,830
phenomenon I don't see how anybody can

2095
01:27:41,530 --> 01:27:38,780
dispute that based on the evidence what

2096
01:27:44,260 --> 01:27:41,540
I'm a an agnostic about is the

2097
01:27:47,410 --> 01:27:44,270
explanation for what UFOs are are they

2098
01:27:49,479 --> 01:27:47,420
in fact visitors from other worlds are

2099
01:27:51,280 --> 01:27:49,489
they deduce from other dimensions can

2100
01:27:53,109 --> 01:27:51,290
they be explained it with proper

2101
01:27:55,780 --> 01:27:53,119
investigation can you take any

2102
01:27:58,780 --> 01:27:55,790
individual case and explain it the

2103
01:28:01,240 --> 01:27:58,790
problem is for me that it's the ETH and

2104
01:28:02,399 --> 01:28:01,250
I emphasize the age which is hypothesis

2105
01:28:06,490 --> 01:28:02,409
and I think it's perfectly valid

2106
01:28:08,500 --> 01:28:06,500
hypothesis but I'm not an ETF guy you

2107
01:28:10,209 --> 01:28:08,510
know F as in fact it's a proven fact

2108
01:28:12,100 --> 01:28:10,219
that yeah I can walk into a court of law

2109
01:28:13,689 --> 01:28:12,110
or into a scientific establishment and

2110
01:28:16,419 --> 01:28:13,699
say look here's the proof that I can

2111
01:28:18,790 --> 01:28:16,429
satisfy a jury of my peers if you will

2112
01:28:22,959 --> 01:28:18,800
and I just don't see that and I know

2113
01:28:25,180 --> 01:28:22,969
what the testimony of people witnesses

2114
01:28:26,649 --> 01:28:25,190
are bad enough I don't have a problem

2115
01:28:28,750 --> 01:28:26,659
with witness testimony but I know a lot

2116
01:28:31,120 --> 01:28:28,760
of people to do I would never hang my

2117
01:28:35,010 --> 01:28:31,130
hat on any particular case solely on

2118
01:28:38,260 --> 01:28:35,020
witness testimony the best witnesses of

2119
01:28:42,430 --> 01:28:38,270
children the case in Africa we're about

2120
01:28:45,970 --> 01:28:42,440
50 school kids reported seeing a flying

2121
01:28:50,020 --> 01:28:45,980
saucer come down land in their school

2122
01:28:54,040 --> 01:28:50,030
yard and they saw little men with big

2123
01:28:57,070 --> 01:28:54,050
eyes that were very scary to them case

2124
01:29:01,030 --> 01:28:57,080
was investigated by the late Harvard

2125
01:29:03,070 --> 01:29:01,040
professor John Mack there's video that's

2126
01:29:04,479 --> 01:29:03,080
been on television of the testimony of

2127
01:29:09,250 --> 01:29:04,489
the children as to what they saw

2128
01:29:14,020 --> 01:29:09,260
it is so compelling it you know if I had

2129
01:29:15,970 --> 01:29:14,030
one case one piece of film to show the

2130
01:29:18,729 --> 01:29:15,980
people to get the point across to them

2131
01:29:23,080 --> 01:29:18,739
that these things happen these

2132
01:29:26,330 --> 01:29:23,090
completely anomalous incidents of flying

2133
01:29:30,649 --> 01:29:26,340
craft piloted by beings who

2134
01:29:32,750 --> 01:29:30,659
are not human that it is real that it

2135
01:29:34,669 --> 01:29:32,760
really does happen that's the case I

2136
01:29:37,669 --> 01:29:34,679
would choose that that's the footage I

2137
01:29:39,740 --> 01:29:37,679
would put everywhere on the the Airways

2138
01:29:43,839 --> 01:29:39,750
because the kids are completely

2139
01:29:46,700 --> 01:29:43,849
compelling they don't have motives they

2140
01:29:48,560 --> 01:29:46,710
they're not making anything up there you

2141
01:29:50,359 --> 01:29:48,570
can tell that they're telling from their

2142
01:29:53,419 --> 01:29:50,369
their real experience they were

2143
01:29:55,700 --> 01:29:53,429
terrified they saw what they saw so you

2144
01:29:57,680 --> 01:29:55,710
know the argument about ok well where

2145
01:30:00,530 --> 01:29:57,690
are they from and what are what you know

2146
01:30:02,000 --> 01:30:00,540
really what are they coming from are

2147
01:30:04,250 --> 01:30:02,010
they from another dimension are they

2148
01:30:06,320 --> 01:30:04,260
from the past of the future or are they

2149
01:30:07,790 --> 01:30:06,330
from this galaxy in another galaxy you

2150
01:30:10,990 --> 01:30:07,800
know nobody has the answers to those

2151
01:30:14,209 --> 01:30:11,000
questions nobody knows and you Paul have

2152
01:30:18,890 --> 01:30:14,219
admitted that the UFO phenomena is real

2153
01:30:21,229 --> 01:30:18,900
but it's real in the sense that advanced

2154
01:30:24,040 --> 01:30:21,239
in my opinion here this is my conclusion

2155
01:30:27,790 --> 01:30:24,050
from having been at this since 1987

2156
01:30:30,530 --> 01:30:27,800
there are real nuts and bolts craft

2157
01:30:32,660 --> 01:30:30,540
flying through the skies sometimes

2158
01:30:37,070 --> 01:30:32,670
coming up out of the water coming from

2159
01:30:41,359 --> 01:30:37,080
somewhere that are in some cases piloted

2160
01:30:43,189 --> 01:30:41,369
by intelligent non-human beings and as

2161
01:30:46,070 --> 01:30:43,199
soon as you've got that in your equation

2162
01:30:48,890 --> 01:30:46,080
as soon as you've gone there you're at a

2163
01:30:51,859 --> 01:30:48,900
point of having to confess that the

2164
01:30:55,850 --> 01:30:51,869
human race is not alone as an

2165
01:30:59,240 --> 01:30:55,860
intelligent species that has access to

2166
01:31:01,040 --> 01:30:59,250
our planet it's no longer just the kind

2167
01:31:01,970 --> 01:31:01,050
of speculation of you know are there

2168
01:31:04,010 --> 01:31:01,980
life-forms

2169
01:31:06,470 --> 01:31:04,020
hundreds of light-years away in other

2170
01:31:08,240 --> 01:31:06,480
star systems and almost any scientist

2171
01:31:08,959 --> 01:31:08,250
will tell you statistically there's

2172
01:31:11,209 --> 01:31:08,969
gotta be

2173
01:31:13,430 --> 01:31:11,219
they don't believe they're visiting here

2174
01:31:15,530 --> 01:31:13,440
because our physics doesn't allow for it

2175
01:31:17,419 --> 01:31:15,540
it doesn't allow for faster than light

2176
01:31:21,730 --> 01:31:17,429
travel we can't imagine how they could

2177
01:31:27,180 --> 01:31:24,200
[Music]

2178
01:31:29,279 --> 01:31:27,190
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2195
01:32:10,140 --> 01:32:05,079
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2196
01:32:12,089 --> 01:32:10,150
see you online we want to hear from you

2197
01:32:15,089 --> 01:32:12,099
if you have a comment or question about

2198
01:32:18,600 --> 01:32:15,099
the pair cast send it to News and the

2199
01:32:20,850 --> 01:32:18,610
podcast com that's news at the pear cast

2200
01:32:22,259 --> 01:32:20,860
calm and don't forget to visit our

2201
01:32:24,689 --> 01:32:22,269
forums where you can talk to fellow

2202
01:32:27,330 --> 01:32:24,699
listeners just go to the pear cast comm

2203
01:32:37,850 --> 01:32:27,340
and click on the forum links that's the

2204
01:32:42,540 --> 01:32:40,500
this is Philip rod know here listening

2205
01:32:45,180 --> 01:32:42,550
to paragraphs one of the most

2206
01:32:48,750 --> 01:32:45,190
informative shows out there so listen

2207
01:32:51,450 --> 01:32:48,760
closely Paul Campbell our co-hosts we

2208
01:32:53,870 --> 01:32:51,460
have paul davids science fiction author

2209
01:32:56,640 --> 01:32:53,880
and filmmaker and Nicholas Redfern

2210
01:32:59,100 --> 01:32:56,650
paranormal author and now Paul you're

2211
01:33:01,680 --> 01:32:59,110
gonna jump in Paul Kimball with both

2212
01:33:03,090 --> 01:33:01,690
feet to respond I was just gonna say

2213
01:33:04,710 --> 01:33:03,100
can't we all get along but that's a

2214
01:33:04,980 --> 01:33:04,720
particularly Canadian way of looking at

2215
01:33:07,380 --> 01:33:04,990
things

2216
01:33:08,820 --> 01:33:07,390
no I I agree with you on one thing Paul

2217
01:33:11,130 --> 01:33:08,830
and that would be that if you've reached

2218
01:33:13,410 --> 01:33:11,140
that conclusion as you have a stand has

2219
01:33:16,290 --> 01:33:13,420
as many other people have that that's

2220
01:33:18,150 --> 01:33:16,300
what you're dealing with then you're

2221
01:33:19,980 --> 01:33:18,160
absolutely right that puts you over here

2222
01:33:23,370 --> 01:33:19,990
in a place where you've you've gotten

2223
01:33:26,130 --> 01:33:23,380
further than then I would go and I I

2224
01:33:29,520 --> 01:33:26,140
think Nick would go I'm not exactly sure

2225
01:33:31,380 --> 01:33:29,530
Nick where you stand on all of this but

2226
01:33:33,600 --> 01:33:31,390
this might be a good place to bring you

2227
01:33:35,790 --> 01:33:33,610
back into the conversation and talk

2228
01:33:39,420 --> 01:33:35,800
about Roswell because so many people

2229
01:33:41,550 --> 01:33:39,430
either think Roswell was the crash of an

2230
01:33:44,040 --> 01:33:41,560
alien spacecraft is Paul and stand and

2231
01:33:46,290 --> 01:33:44,050
others would assert or if you believe

2232
01:33:47,820 --> 01:33:46,300
Karl flock and the US Air Force and

2233
01:33:50,310 --> 01:33:47,830
other people it was a project mogul

2234
01:33:52,610 --> 01:33:50,320
balloon that came down but you a couple

2235
01:33:56,580 --> 01:33:52,620
of years ago came out with a different

2236
01:33:58,410 --> 01:33:56,590
theory tell us a bit about what that

2237
01:34:00,540 --> 01:33:58,420
theory was how you came about it

2238
01:34:03,330 --> 01:34:00,550
speaking of conspiracies and anonymous

2239
01:34:05,640 --> 01:34:03,340
sources and then maybe Paul when Nick's

2240
01:34:07,230 --> 01:34:05,650
through that we can bring you in and and

2241
01:34:10,200 --> 01:34:07,240
you can we can have a little

2242
01:34:12,780 --> 01:34:10,210
conversation about Roswell taking the

2243
01:34:15,060 --> 01:34:12,790
alien meme to its its core here so go

2244
01:34:17,580 --> 01:34:15,070
ahead and make yeah sure I mean in terms

2245
01:34:19,950 --> 01:34:17,590
of the overall UFO subject I think one

2246
01:34:22,860 --> 01:34:19,960
of the biggest problems are a lot of

2247
01:34:25,230 --> 01:34:22,870
people not deliberately unconsciously or

2248
01:34:29,460 --> 01:34:25,240
subconsciously within the UFO subject

2249
01:34:32,280 --> 01:34:29,470
make is is tiring everybody with the

2250
01:34:33,840 --> 01:34:32,290
same brush that this is the person who

2251
01:34:36,960 --> 01:34:33,850
believes this is the person who believes

2252
01:34:39,690 --> 01:34:36,970
that etc etc you know Nick's a bad guy

2253
01:34:41,610 --> 01:34:39,700
he wrote a book about Roswell and they

2254
01:34:43,800 --> 01:34:41,620
perceive you as being you know I've been

2255
01:34:45,510 --> 01:34:43,810
to see there's the anti UFO that I don't

2256
01:34:47,520 --> 01:34:45,520
believe is a genuine UFO phenomenon

2257
01:34:48,510 --> 01:34:47,530
because I dared to write a book that

2258
01:34:49,950 --> 01:34:48,520
suggests

2259
01:34:52,200 --> 01:34:49,960
aliens might not have crashed at Roswell

2260
01:34:54,060 --> 01:34:52,210
I do believe there's a genuine UFO

2261
01:34:57,300 --> 01:34:54,070
phenomena I actually believe there's a

2262
01:35:00,330 --> 01:34:57,310
genuinely anomalous origin for some UFO

2263
01:35:02,310 --> 01:35:00,340
reports but I'm like you I don't I'm not

2264
01:35:04,919 --> 01:35:02,320
sure if it's extraterrestrial or if you

2265
01:35:06,600 --> 01:35:04,929
have some other weirdly anomalous origin

2266
01:35:09,870 --> 01:35:06,610
that we don't even understand yet but

2267
01:35:11,939 --> 01:35:09,880
who I believe all unknown UFOs a

2268
01:35:13,560 --> 01:35:11,949
military craft no I don't I do think

2269
01:35:17,729 --> 01:35:13,570
there's an unknown presence amongst us

2270
01:35:19,680 --> 01:35:17,739
but the problem I found is that so many

2271
01:35:23,010 --> 01:35:19,690
people knew your field subject today are

2272
01:35:25,379 --> 01:35:23,020
unable to desistance of the UFO

2273
01:35:27,359 --> 01:35:25,389
phenomenon of unknown origins unless it

2274
01:35:30,180 --> 01:35:27,369
involves Roswell Roswell has to be a

2275
01:35:33,180 --> 01:35:30,190
part of the equation for them and I've

2276
01:35:35,399 --> 01:35:33,190
never really understood why we cannot

2277
01:35:37,589 --> 01:35:35,409
address each case on its own merits why

2278
01:35:40,050 --> 01:35:37,599
one case has to become almost like the

2279
01:35:42,330 --> 01:35:40,060
Holy Grail upon which a great deal of

2280
01:35:44,430 --> 01:35:42,340
the subject is dependence to the point

2281
01:35:47,129 --> 01:35:44,440
where if I wrote a book about one case

2282
01:35:49,050 --> 01:35:47,139
I'm dismissed as a UFO skeptic you know

2283
01:35:49,979 --> 01:35:49,060
if I wrote a book saying George Adamski

2284
01:35:52,050 --> 01:35:49,989
was full of crap

2285
01:35:54,540 --> 01:35:52,060
people wouldn't say I was a UFO skeptic

2286
01:35:56,310 --> 01:35:54,550
when I write a book read Roswell I am

2287
01:35:59,010 --> 01:35:56,320
here for skeptics and that's because

2288
01:36:01,379 --> 01:35:59,020
Roswell has become wrongly in my opinion

2289
01:36:04,439 --> 01:36:01,389
the case upon which much of ufology

2290
01:36:06,450 --> 01:36:04,449
stands and also there are a lot of

2291
01:36:09,780 --> 01:36:06,460
people in ufology who don't just believe

2292
01:36:11,939 --> 01:36:09,790
that aliens crashed at Roswell they want

2293
01:36:13,950 --> 01:36:11,949
to believe the alien theory is correct

2294
01:36:17,100 --> 01:36:13,960
and when you want to believe one theory

2295
01:36:19,379 --> 01:36:17,110
over another you've lost the the

2296
01:36:22,470 --> 01:36:19,389
rational approach of looking at the

2297
01:36:24,810 --> 01:36:22,480
evidence you become someone who who is

2298
01:36:26,790 --> 01:36:24,820
essentially treating the subject as a

2299
01:36:28,620 --> 01:36:26,800
religion because you wants it to be true

2300
01:36:30,959 --> 01:36:28,630
you have faith that this particular

2301
01:36:32,640 --> 01:36:30,969
theory is the correct one so that's

2302
01:36:36,030 --> 01:36:32,650
that's the one thing I would say now as

2303
01:36:38,700 --> 01:36:36,040
far as body-snatchers was concerned one

2304
01:36:40,800 --> 01:36:38,710
of the things is quite incorrect is when

2305
01:36:44,040 --> 01:36:40,810
I've seen the repeated countless times

2306
01:36:47,760 --> 01:36:44,050
that in Nick Redferns theory what a lot

2307
01:36:51,180 --> 01:36:47,770
of people don't know is that fourteen

2308
01:36:54,060 --> 01:36:51,190
years before my book was published in

2309
01:36:55,729 --> 01:36:54,070
his final last one status report on

2310
01:36:58,169 --> 01:36:55,739
crashed UFOs Leonard Stringfield

2311
01:36:59,189 --> 01:36:58,179
repeated or I should say repeated but

2312
01:37:01,380 --> 01:36:59,199
told the same story

2313
01:37:05,910 --> 01:37:01,390
ie Japanese

2314
01:37:08,610 --> 01:37:05,920
individuals we used in experimentation

2315
01:37:10,590 --> 01:37:08,620
to New Mexico in the summer 47 now

2316
01:37:12,960 --> 01:37:10,600
Stringfield outright says that he was

2317
01:37:15,840 --> 01:37:12,970
told that by one of these sources now

2318
01:37:18,480 --> 01:37:15,850
john cale a lot of people have said well

2319
01:37:21,120 --> 01:37:18,490
Cal talks about the the Japanese Fogo

2320
01:37:22,890 --> 01:37:21,130
balloon angle for Roswell a lot of

2321
01:37:24,930 --> 01:37:22,900
people also talk about that in

2322
01:37:27,210 --> 01:37:24,940
criticized qu'il don't realize that in

2323
01:37:29,880 --> 01:37:27,220
the same article in which he talks there

2324
01:37:32,580 --> 01:37:29,890
Fudo balloons he also said that he'd

2325
01:37:35,460 --> 01:37:32,590
been told about Japanese experiments

2326
01:37:37,500 --> 01:37:35,470
excusing experiments with Japanese

2327
01:37:39,360 --> 01:37:37,510
individuals in balloons nothing to do

2328
01:37:41,880 --> 01:37:39,370
with a fog or food Oh balloons but like

2329
01:37:45,390 --> 01:37:41,890
next generation which is what I was told

2330
01:37:47,730 --> 01:37:45,400
Popular Mechanics in 1997 said they'd

2331
01:37:51,180 --> 01:37:47,740
been quote told of a forthcoming release

2332
01:37:54,870 --> 01:37:51,190
of documents was going to talk about the

2333
01:37:56,610 --> 01:37:54,880
Japanese angle for as well eight years

2334
01:37:58,950 --> 01:37:56,620
before Barbie status was published so in

2335
01:38:01,080 --> 01:37:58,960
other words this story's been out for a

2336
01:38:03,540 --> 01:38:01,090
long long time Keith pastor field and

2337
01:38:05,880 --> 01:38:03,550
Australian researcher I openly told me

2338
01:38:07,680 --> 01:38:05,890
he'd been given the same story six

2339
01:38:10,050 --> 01:38:07,690
months before my book was published and

2340
01:38:11,580 --> 01:38:10,060
before I even knew about it by a guy

2341
01:38:13,620 --> 01:38:11,590
whose father worked in British

2342
01:38:15,030 --> 01:38:13,630
intelligence who I was able to interview

2343
01:38:17,460 --> 01:38:15,040
after the book was published so in other

2344
01:38:20,970 --> 01:38:17,470
words you know there's a lot of strands

2345
01:38:24,360 --> 01:38:20,980
for this story and the the people I

2346
01:38:26,220 --> 01:38:24,370
interviewed were basically you know -

2347
01:38:28,460 --> 01:38:26,230
similar to the people popular Matata

2348
01:38:31,320 --> 01:38:28,470
mechanics interviewed Keith interviewed

2349
01:38:32,970 --> 01:38:31,330
Stringfield spoke with in other words

2350
01:38:35,220 --> 01:38:32,980
there are people out there old-timers

2351
01:38:38,250 --> 01:38:35,230
who whether the story is true or not or

2352
01:38:39,000 --> 01:38:38,260
it's deception have our aspects of his

2353
01:38:40,920 --> 01:38:39,010
story

2354
01:38:42,210 --> 01:38:40,930
the only difference between me and them

2355
01:38:45,330 --> 01:38:42,220
he said I was the only one who wrote a

2356
01:38:48,780 --> 01:38:45,340
for book about it the other stories are

2357
01:38:50,820 --> 01:38:48,790
all kind of you know page 46 of somebody

2358
01:38:53,040 --> 01:38:50,830
else's book where there's half a page or

2359
01:38:55,530 --> 01:38:53,050
a page but it's a distilled version of

2360
01:38:58,770 --> 01:38:55,540
exactly the same thing so either the

2361
01:39:00,510 --> 01:38:58,780
story's true or it's deception

2362
01:39:02,580 --> 01:39:00,520
disinformation or something along those

2363
01:39:05,580 --> 01:39:02,590
lines that's been around for a very very

2364
01:39:08,580 --> 01:39:05,590
long time you know 20 years even before

2365
01:39:09,890 --> 01:39:08,590
my book even came out but 20 years look

2366
01:39:11,570 --> 01:39:09,900
at me all I do it's the

2367
01:39:13,130 --> 01:39:11,580
training all I do is play the devil

2368
01:39:15,260 --> 01:39:13,140
devil's advocate so now I'll play the

2369
01:39:17,360 --> 01:39:15,270
devil's advocate for you twenty years

2370
01:39:18,979 --> 01:39:17,370
before your book came out would have

2371
01:39:21,169 --> 01:39:18,989
been roughly around the time that the

2372
01:39:25,010 --> 01:39:21,179
Roswell story was resurfacing and

2373
01:39:27,260 --> 01:39:25,020
gathering steam so if it is just if the

2374
01:39:29,330 --> 01:39:27,270
Roswell story is true in the sense then

2375
01:39:31,939 --> 01:39:29,340
it's you know as Stan would say aliens

2376
01:39:33,800 --> 01:39:31,949
who crashed their yeah then that

2377
01:39:35,930 --> 01:39:33,810
timeframe would make perfect sense to

2378
01:39:38,149 --> 01:39:35,940
start seeding a whole bunch of stories

2379
01:39:41,120 --> 01:39:38,159
and who knows which one's gonna stick

2380
01:39:43,010 --> 01:39:41,130
but let's get dis information out there

2381
01:39:44,959 --> 01:39:43,020
and hope that you know any one of these

2382
01:39:48,350 --> 01:39:44,969
things will take off and provide an

2383
01:39:50,060 --> 01:39:48,360
alternative explanation and bring paul

2384
01:39:52,130 --> 01:39:50,070
davids back in in the conversation and

2385
01:39:53,479 --> 01:39:52,140
say but i just want to ask you nick your

2386
01:39:56,120 --> 01:39:53,489
bar do you believe it

2387
01:39:58,160 --> 01:39:56,130
do you like is this a sort of it because

2388
01:39:59,240 --> 01:39:58,170
i know you and and you and i in greg we

2389
01:40:01,220 --> 01:39:59,250
all do the same things thought

2390
01:40:03,470 --> 01:40:01,230
experiment smack did them too but

2391
01:40:06,200 --> 01:40:03,480
body-snatchers in the desert does your

2392
01:40:08,000 --> 01:40:06,210
research on that particular issue led

2393
01:40:10,520 --> 01:40:08,010
you to a place where you now accept that

2394
01:40:13,760 --> 01:40:10,530
that is if not the definitive answer the

2395
01:40:16,550 --> 01:40:13,770
most probable or likely answer you think

2396
01:40:18,140 --> 01:40:16,560
is I think it's a whether or not the

2397
01:40:21,080 --> 01:40:18,150
people aren't they've have to remember

2398
01:40:23,000 --> 01:40:21,090
the people I interviewed you know they

2399
01:40:25,100 --> 01:40:23,010
rack one of the people I interviewed I

2400
01:40:27,620 --> 01:40:25,110
only had enough material to feel 1 and a

2401
01:40:29,630 --> 01:40:27,630
half pages of the entire book in other

2402
01:40:32,380 --> 01:40:29,640
words some of these people were in

2403
01:40:35,479 --> 01:40:32,390
people who were spinning massive tales

2404
01:40:39,260 --> 01:40:35,489
to feeling every convenient goth in the

2405
01:40:40,640 --> 01:40:39,270
story to fit their bill so that to me

2406
01:40:43,399 --> 01:40:40,650
didn't come across like a typical

2407
01:40:44,660 --> 01:40:43,409
disinformation angle now since writing

2408
01:40:46,550 --> 01:40:44,670
the book and this is one of the reasons

2409
01:40:49,070 --> 01:40:46,560
why I think there's more to the Japanese

2410
01:40:51,740 --> 01:40:49,080
angle is that I actually uncovered

2411
01:40:54,800 --> 01:40:51,750
official files from the FBI where a boy

2412
01:40:57,229 --> 01:40:54,810
a young boy died in Lincoln County where

2413
01:41:01,040 --> 01:40:57,239
the Roswell event happened he died in 49

2414
01:41:02,990 --> 01:41:01,050
from the plague from a virus which

2415
01:41:05,390 --> 01:41:03,000
killed him he was taken to a place

2416
01:41:10,070 --> 01:41:05,400
called Fort Stanton in Lincoln County

2417
01:41:12,770 --> 01:41:10,080
also and files on this young boy were

2418
01:41:14,060 --> 01:41:12,780
generated by the FBI and shared with the

2419
01:41:16,340 --> 01:41:14,070
Air Force the Atomic Energy Commission

2420
01:41:17,810 --> 01:41:16,350
and the CIA and the reason they were

2421
01:41:19,580 --> 01:41:17,820
shared with them and and these are

2422
01:41:21,200 --> 01:41:19,590
Freedom of Information files by the way

2423
01:41:23,009 --> 01:41:21,210
the reason they were shared with all

2424
01:41:24,989 --> 01:41:23,019
these agencies was because

2425
01:41:28,669 --> 01:41:24,999
there was a fear that the boy actually

2426
01:41:31,259 --> 01:41:28,679
been killed not by a plague that was

2427
01:41:32,759 --> 01:41:31,269
actually relevant to New Mexico but

2428
01:41:34,919 --> 01:41:32,769
there was introduced and one of the

2429
01:41:38,129 --> 01:41:34,929
theories that was looked at was whether

2430
01:41:42,179 --> 01:41:38,139
or not this particular plague was due to

2431
01:41:44,009 --> 01:41:42,189
research by Japan's unit 731 group which

2432
01:41:48,299 --> 01:41:44,019
is central to the story of Body

2433
01:41:50,399 --> 01:41:48,309
Snatchers now what they see in an even

2434
01:41:52,919 --> 01:41:50,409
more intriguing part is that where the

2435
01:41:56,029 --> 01:41:52,929
boy was taken forth Stanton is that

2436
01:41:59,069 --> 01:41:56,039
during the Second World War many

2437
01:42:00,809 --> 01:41:59,079
Japanese people who lived actually in

2438
01:42:02,669 --> 01:42:00,819
Lincoln can see where the crash happened

2439
01:42:05,309 --> 01:42:02,679
and surrounding areas like Albuquerque

2440
01:42:08,159 --> 01:42:05,319
were taken to Fort Stanton and interred

2441
01:42:11,219 --> 01:42:08,169
and held there as we're a number of

2442
01:42:12,779 --> 01:42:11,229
handicapped people so in other words you

2443
01:42:15,359 --> 01:42:12,789
have the Roswell crash in Lincoln County

2444
01:42:17,669 --> 01:42:15,369
where some people said actually involved

2445
01:42:19,169 --> 01:42:17,679
Japanese people and you have a military

2446
01:42:20,819 --> 01:42:19,179
base called fort stance and we're

2447
01:42:23,699 --> 01:42:20,829
handicapped and Japanese people were

2448
01:42:26,909 --> 01:42:23,709
held in the Second World War actually

2449
01:42:28,409 --> 01:42:26,919
after the Second World War as well and

2450
01:42:31,019 --> 01:42:28,419
you have a young boy taken there who

2451
01:42:34,169 --> 01:42:31,029
died from a plague which some people

2452
01:42:36,839 --> 01:42:34,179
thought was connected with Yui 731 so

2453
01:42:39,929 --> 01:42:36,849
you know somewhere down the line I think

2454
01:42:42,449 --> 01:42:39,939
there's a Japanese connection but am I

2455
01:42:44,939 --> 01:42:42,459
open to the idea that I was deceived

2456
01:42:47,069 --> 01:42:44,949
yeah I have to be and you know I'm not

2457
01:42:49,289 --> 01:42:47,079
saying I'm any better than any other

2458
01:42:51,750 --> 01:42:49,299
Roswell or I'm certainly not as papers

2459
01:42:54,689 --> 01:42:51,760
been involved with it long before me but

2460
01:42:57,179 --> 01:42:54,699
what I would say is that I am open to

2461
01:42:59,939 --> 01:42:57,189
the idea as many versatile researchers

2462
01:43:01,619 --> 01:42:59,949
aren't that I was deceived you know I

2463
01:43:04,939 --> 01:43:01,629
can never deny that and it would be

2464
01:43:08,339 --> 01:43:04,949
dishonest for me to say my source is

2465
01:43:10,079 --> 01:43:08,349
100% correct and I sold it I can never

2466
01:43:12,359 --> 01:43:10,089
say that and I wouldn't say that yeah

2467
01:43:14,489 --> 01:43:12,369
but you'd be invited to a lot more UFO

2468
01:43:16,439 --> 01:43:14,499
conferences Nick if you do see the

2469
01:43:22,799 --> 01:43:16,449
bloody the Nick is always there and nice

2470
01:43:25,469 --> 01:43:22,809
always welcome and I think it's it's an

2471
01:43:27,089 --> 01:43:25,479
interesting theory Nick and I'm glad you

2472
01:43:33,119 --> 01:43:27,099
wrote the book and I read the book with

2473
01:43:37,660 --> 01:43:33,129
interest and I can't disprove it just as

2474
01:43:43,530 --> 01:43:40,100
[Music]

2475
01:43:46,080 --> 01:43:43,540
for 58 years fate has provided true

2476
01:43:48,450 --> 01:43:46,090
reports of the strange and unknown fate

2477
01:43:50,310 --> 01:43:48,460
brings you the latest in all aspects of

2478
01:43:53,880 --> 01:43:50,320
the paranormal like angels and miracles

2479
01:43:56,340 --> 01:43:53,890
psychic phenomena ghosts UFOs and much

2480
01:43:59,220 --> 01:43:56,350
much more to receive your complimentary

2481
01:44:02,700 --> 01:43:59,230
fate magazine call now at one eight

2482
01:44:06,540 --> 01:44:02,710
hundred seven two eight two seven three

2483
01:44:09,630 --> 01:44:06,550
oh or visit their website at WWF at mag

2484
01:44:16,020 --> 01:44:09,640
com that's one eight hundred seven two

2485
01:44:19,380 --> 01:44:16,030
eight two seven three zero or WWF a TEM

2486
01:44:21,180 --> 01:44:19,390
AG calm what are you waiting for your

2487
01:44:36,850 --> 01:44:21,190
fate awaits

2488
01:44:54,609 --> 01:44:44,600
[Music]

2489
01:45:00,799 --> 01:44:57,770
we have paul davids filmmaker science

2490
01:45:04,009 --> 01:45:00,809
fiction writer paranormal author Nicolas

2491
01:45:08,299 --> 01:45:04,019
Redfern our co-host is Paul Campbell and

2492
01:45:09,649 --> 01:45:08,309
paul davids was now basically expressing

2493
01:45:12,740 --> 01:45:09,659
his side of the story

2494
01:45:14,750 --> 01:45:12,750
with regard to the viewpoints about

2495
01:45:18,799 --> 01:45:14,760
Roswell go ahead please

2496
01:45:21,709 --> 01:45:18,809
well I I wanted to say that I read Nick

2497
01:45:26,330 --> 01:45:21,719
reference in the book the body centers

2498
01:45:31,160 --> 01:45:26,340
in the desert with interest and any

2499
01:45:35,839 --> 01:45:31,170
theory that has multi parts to it that

2500
01:45:37,879 --> 01:45:35,849
has some possibility of being an

2501
01:45:40,490 --> 01:45:37,889
explanation is worth our time to look

2502
01:45:42,830 --> 01:45:40,500
into it and I'm glad Nick wrote the book

2503
01:45:44,319 --> 01:45:42,840
I can't disprove the theory that's

2504
01:45:48,049 --> 01:45:44,329
presented in the book just as I can't

2505
01:45:50,689 --> 01:45:48,059
prove that I can't prove that they were

2506
01:45:54,700 --> 01:45:50,699
aliens recovered at Roswell but I can

2507
01:45:58,430 --> 01:45:54,710
give some key personal impressions as

2508
01:46:01,370 --> 01:45:58,440
someone who has had his life wrapped up

2509
01:46:04,310 --> 01:46:01,380
in this in so many ways

2510
01:46:05,450 --> 01:46:04,320
since being executive producer of the

2511
01:46:08,899 --> 01:46:05,460
film Roswell

2512
01:46:11,270 --> 01:46:08,909
starting back in 1993 we started filming

2513
01:46:14,270 --> 01:46:11,280
actually began working on the project in

2514
01:46:17,689 --> 01:46:14,280
89 so we're over over 20 years of this

2515
01:46:19,459 --> 01:46:17,699
with me and when we were researching the

2516
01:46:24,589 --> 01:46:19,469
film before the script was even written

2517
01:46:25,459 --> 01:46:24,599
I had trips to Roswell with Kevin Randle

2518
01:46:28,879 --> 01:46:25,469
and Don Schmidt

2519
01:46:33,140 --> 01:46:28,889
I heard many of the witnesses who were

2520
01:46:36,649 --> 01:46:33,150
very old then firsthand and got their

2521
01:46:39,410 --> 01:46:36,659
stories and what I heard again and again

2522
01:46:43,759 --> 01:46:39,420
from you know relatives of Sheriff

2523
01:46:46,129 --> 01:46:43,769
Wilcox and the base photographer and the

2524
01:46:50,419 --> 01:46:46,139
people who had family who were there

2525
01:46:53,540 --> 01:46:50,429
then were deeply involved was they

2526
01:46:56,510 --> 01:46:53,550
captured aliens here then they brought

2527
01:46:59,120 --> 01:46:56,520
in alien bodies they were

2528
01:47:02,240 --> 01:46:59,130
they were recovered along with their

2529
01:47:06,050 --> 01:47:02,250
their craft that's what the people that

2530
01:47:08,030 --> 01:47:06,060
we talked to believe was the case you

2531
01:47:09,470 --> 01:47:08,040
know could they have been wrong could

2532
01:47:13,459 --> 01:47:09,480
they have been reporting what they saw

2533
01:47:15,530 --> 01:47:13,469
based on not realizing that you know a

2534
01:47:17,120 --> 01:47:15,540
Japanese used in some arming

2535
01:47:19,930 --> 01:47:17,130
experiment was what was being brought in

2536
01:47:28,280 --> 01:47:19,940
I don't know but I look at it this way

2537
01:47:31,670 --> 01:47:28,290
it's now 2010 it was about 1995 no in

2538
01:47:34,370 --> 01:47:31,680
1994 actually when the Air Force put

2539
01:47:37,270 --> 01:47:34,380
this story to bed they thought once and

2540
01:47:41,530 --> 01:47:37,280
for all they tried to explain it away

2541
01:47:43,459 --> 01:47:41,540
and they they offered they offered every

2542
01:47:46,490 --> 01:47:43,469
everything that they could come up with

2543
01:47:49,040 --> 01:47:46,500
to produce a large volume about the

2544
01:47:51,709 --> 01:47:49,050
Roswell incident case closed two volumes

2545
01:47:54,350 --> 01:47:51,719
I think actually to say this this was an

2546
01:47:55,910 --> 01:47:54,360
experimental motor balloon it connected

2547
01:47:59,450 --> 01:47:55,920
with research about did the Russians

2548
01:48:01,970 --> 01:47:59,460
have the atomic bomb now and then as far

2549
01:48:05,000 --> 01:48:01,980
as the aliens were concerned it was a

2550
01:48:06,890 --> 01:48:05,010
misinterpretation of crash dummies that

2551
01:48:08,780 --> 01:48:06,900
were dropped in the desert years after

2552
01:48:10,670 --> 01:48:08,790
this happened but they said the people

2553
01:48:13,160 --> 01:48:10,680
who live down there forgot what year

2554
01:48:15,110 --> 01:48:13,170
they came across these these parachuted

2555
01:48:17,479 --> 01:48:15,120
crash dummies and that they thought that

2556
01:48:19,310 --> 01:48:17,489
they were aliens which always sounded

2557
01:48:22,610 --> 01:48:19,320
ridiculous to me

2558
01:48:26,060 --> 01:48:22,620
and why is it that so many of the people

2559
01:48:28,910 --> 01:48:26,070
who have studied the case worked on the

2560
01:48:31,790 --> 01:48:28,920
case so hard just rejected what the

2561
01:48:35,450 --> 01:48:31,800
government had to say in 1996 and felt

2562
01:48:38,090 --> 01:48:35,460
that it was an attempt to bamboozle the

2563
01:48:38,630 --> 01:48:38,100
public again because that is the way I

2564
01:48:44,570 --> 01:48:38,640
felt

2565
01:48:46,610 --> 01:48:44,580
we know that the documents that were

2566
01:48:49,910 --> 01:48:46,620
communication between the various bases

2567
01:48:51,979 --> 01:48:49,920
then Fort Worth than Roswell right field

2568
01:48:55,939 --> 01:48:51,989
they were destroyed without

2569
01:48:57,820 --> 01:48:55,949
authorization that was the result of the

2570
01:48:59,990 --> 01:48:57,830
government accounting agency's

2571
01:49:01,550 --> 01:49:00,000
examination of this that the key

2572
01:49:04,370 --> 01:49:01,560
documents that could have answered this

2573
01:49:09,879 --> 01:49:04,380
question were destroyed long ago without

2574
01:49:12,100 --> 01:49:09,889
authorization someone really wanted to

2575
01:49:14,140 --> 01:49:12,110
silence this well you know this is the

2576
01:49:16,959 --> 01:49:14,150
cover of this paper trail and why

2577
01:49:20,169 --> 01:49:16,969
wouldn't it have come out now if it's

2578
01:49:22,300 --> 01:49:20,179
something such as the army experimenting

2579
01:49:24,070 --> 01:49:22,310
with some Japanese pitches that look

2580
01:49:28,060 --> 01:49:24,080
look at all the things that have come

2581
01:49:30,459 --> 01:49:28,070
out you know experiments with with with

2582
01:49:32,290 --> 01:49:30,469
causing people to have the syphilis to

2583
01:49:33,760 --> 01:49:32,300
giving various diseases to taking

2584
01:49:37,149 --> 01:49:33,770
civilians and subjecting them to

2585
01:49:40,180 --> 01:49:37,159
radiation to see what the results were

2586
01:49:42,580 --> 01:49:40,190
going to be so much really horrible

2587
01:49:44,680 --> 01:49:42,590
stuff has come out about government

2588
01:49:46,270 --> 01:49:44,690
experimentation that is admitted now and

2589
01:49:48,340 --> 01:49:46,280
is part of the public record

2590
01:49:51,189 --> 01:49:48,350
why still cover-up this it makes

2591
01:49:55,240 --> 01:49:51,199
absolutely no sense unless well the

2592
01:49:59,560 --> 01:49:55,250
ramifications of it run so deep that the

2593
01:50:02,080 --> 01:49:59,570
risk of letting this out has really

2594
01:50:04,359 --> 01:50:02,090
really far-reaching consequences that's

2595
01:50:07,090 --> 01:50:04,369
what I believe is the case and I

2596
01:50:10,629 --> 01:50:07,100
absolutely believe astronaut Edgar

2597
01:50:13,330 --> 01:50:10,639
Mitchell who walked on the moon that it

2598
01:50:18,520 --> 01:50:13,340
was a case of the recovery of a crashed

2599
01:50:21,640 --> 01:50:18,530
alien vehicle and I personally believe

2600
01:50:24,550 --> 01:50:21,650
what philip corso said when he claimed

2601
01:50:28,750 --> 01:50:24,560
that the hardware recovered from that

2602
01:50:30,850 --> 01:50:28,760
crash which was given to industry

2603
01:50:34,180 --> 01:50:30,860
through army research and development

2604
01:50:36,310 --> 01:50:34,190
projects did result over a period of

2605
01:50:38,160 --> 01:50:36,320
time in many discoveries that have

2606
01:50:43,209 --> 01:50:38,170
changed the world as we know it today

2607
01:50:48,250 --> 01:50:43,219
and i think that i think that that's a

2608
01:50:50,080 --> 01:50:48,260
lot of food for thought and you can

2609
01:50:55,090 --> 01:50:50,090
diagnostic about it you can reject it

2610
01:50:57,310 --> 01:50:55,100
but if the theory is true we've got a

2611
01:50:59,290 --> 01:50:57,320
lot to be really concerned about how

2612
01:51:01,570 --> 01:50:59,300
secrecy works in our society and what it

2613
01:51:03,669 --> 01:51:01,580
has done to us and there's no better

2614
01:51:07,629 --> 01:51:03,679
author on this subject today then

2615
01:51:09,879 --> 01:51:07,639
Richard Dolan whose two volumes UFOs in

2616
01:51:13,169 --> 01:51:09,889
the national security state totaling up

2617
01:51:17,169 --> 01:51:13,179
to a couple thousand pages I think

2618
01:51:19,780 --> 01:51:17,179
there's no better job of analyzing all

2619
01:51:22,660 --> 01:51:19,790
of this what happened what the evidence

2620
01:51:26,550 --> 01:51:22,670
is what the repercussions are we can

2621
01:51:28,870 --> 01:51:26,560
debate it forever there's incredible

2622
01:51:31,510 --> 01:51:28,880
documentation and analysis that Dolan

2623
01:51:33,850 --> 01:51:31,520
provides he's the one I would turn to an

2624
01:51:36,640 --> 01:51:33,860
Edgar Mitchell who was there on the moon

2625
01:51:46,660 --> 01:51:36,650
who's come back to earth who's told us

2626
01:51:48,669 --> 01:51:46,670
it's real the message boards if I didn't

2627
01:51:51,220 --> 01:51:48,679
say something my problem with both of

2628
01:51:52,810 --> 01:51:51,230
those things I guess we're running short

2629
01:51:55,240 --> 01:51:52,820
of time so it'll be a very quick problem

2630
01:51:57,939 --> 01:51:55,250
won't be a four-minute problem there you

2631
01:52:00,879 --> 01:51:57,949
go one minute problem one the appeal to

2632
01:52:02,800 --> 01:52:00,889
Authority unless Edgar Mitchell can step

2633
01:52:04,359 --> 01:52:02,810
forward and you know I have nothing but

2634
01:52:05,709 --> 01:52:04,369
the greatest respect for any astronaut

2635
01:52:07,810 --> 01:52:05,719
so don't take what I'm about to say

2636
01:52:09,459 --> 01:52:07,820
wrong but unless somebody can step

2637
01:52:11,280 --> 01:52:09,469
forward and say here are the names of

2638
01:52:14,229 --> 01:52:11,290
the sources that told me these things

2639
01:52:15,820 --> 01:52:14,239
you can go talk to them yourselves we

2640
01:52:17,589 --> 01:52:15,830
can get this down the public then all it

2641
01:52:19,419 --> 01:52:17,599
is is something somebody telling me

2642
01:52:21,490 --> 01:52:19,429
something that they say they've heard

2643
01:52:23,410 --> 01:52:21,500
and you know you can weigh that it's I

2644
01:52:25,570 --> 01:52:23,420
will I will grant you Paul that that is

2645
01:52:29,709 --> 01:52:25,580
evidence of a sort but when you're

2646
01:52:31,390 --> 01:52:29,719
weighing it you put more substance to it

2647
01:52:33,010 --> 01:52:31,400
that I would I prefer in dealing with

2648
01:52:35,260 --> 01:52:33,020
hard data and those sorts of things

2649
01:52:38,140 --> 01:52:35,270
and while Richard Dolan is a friend of

2650
01:52:40,089 --> 01:52:38,150
mine as my Facebook page will say I have

2651
01:52:41,260 --> 01:52:40,099
a different view of his books than you

2652
01:52:44,290 --> 01:52:41,270
do yes there's some interesting

2653
01:52:47,470 --> 01:52:44,300
information in there but when you have a

2654
01:52:49,689 --> 01:52:47,480
historian and that's what I studied

2655
01:52:52,540 --> 01:52:49,699
myself who does things like speculate

2656
01:52:56,939 --> 01:52:52,550
that Jim McDonald was killed by the

2657
01:53:02,320 --> 01:52:59,620
the speculation goes back to the year of

2658
01:53:04,390 --> 01:53:02,330
his death it's nothing new nobody nobody

2659
01:53:06,220 --> 01:53:04,400
within the UFO community including

2660
01:53:07,959 --> 01:53:06,230
people who knew McDonald very well like

2661
01:53:10,959 --> 01:53:07,969
Jerry Clark takes that even remotely

2662
01:53:12,760 --> 01:53:10,969
seriously McDonald they already tried to

2663
01:53:14,290 --> 01:53:12,770
kill himself once he had family problems

2664
01:53:16,959 --> 01:53:14,300
he was depressed over the collapse of

2665
01:53:19,510 --> 01:53:16,969
his career all of which you know people

2666
01:53:22,390 --> 01:53:19,520
killed themselves to pull to weave that

2667
01:53:24,850 --> 01:53:22,400
in which Dolan does into some sort of my

2668
01:53:26,800 --> 01:53:24,860
problem is not with the cases that Dolan

2669
01:53:28,689 --> 01:53:26,810
cites my problem is that he then weaves

2670
01:53:32,830 --> 01:53:28,699
it into this overarching conspiratorial

2671
01:53:34,359 --> 01:53:32,840
look at the way our society works and I

2672
01:53:35,070 --> 01:53:34,369
just don't think he has the evidence to

2673
01:53:37,590 --> 01:53:35,080
back that up

2674
01:53:39,380 --> 01:53:37,600
but that is you know reasonable people

2675
01:53:41,670 --> 01:53:39,390
can have reasonable as rich and I have

2676
01:53:43,800 --> 01:53:41,680
reasonable disagreements over that sort

2677
01:53:45,960 --> 01:53:43,810
of thing so Nick you were you trying to

2678
01:53:47,850 --> 01:53:45,970
make your translation I just wanted to

2679
01:53:49,860 --> 01:53:47,860
make one colleague which which for me at

2680
01:53:51,000 --> 01:53:49,870
least him I feels important and people

2681
01:53:53,250 --> 01:53:51,010
might say well he would feel it's

2682
01:53:56,370 --> 01:53:53,260
important but it's just a quick one it's

2683
01:53:58,440 --> 01:53:56,380
in relation to the destruction of these

2684
01:54:00,570 --> 01:53:58,450
files that couldn't be found from

2685
01:54:03,180 --> 01:54:00,580
Roswell and one of the things I feels

2686
01:54:06,270 --> 01:54:03,190
important is in relation to this issue

2687
01:54:08,040 --> 01:54:06,280
of the destruction of files or the

2688
01:54:09,630 --> 01:54:08,050
missing files that the General

2689
01:54:12,720 --> 01:54:09,640
Accounting Office couldn't find from

2690
01:54:15,030 --> 01:54:12,730
Roswell in relation to the Roswell

2691
01:54:16,980 --> 01:54:15,040
events now all the people I interviewed

2692
01:54:18,540 --> 01:54:16,990
for my book said that the events at

2693
01:54:20,850 --> 01:54:18,550
Roswell were the culmination of twelve

2694
01:54:24,120 --> 01:54:20,860
months of research which would have

2695
01:54:28,290 --> 01:54:24,130
begun in 46 and which went through into

2696
01:54:31,350 --> 01:54:28,300
47 now the files vanished from the

2697
01:54:33,450 --> 01:54:31,360
Roswell base if Rosewell was a random

2698
01:54:36,090 --> 01:54:33,460
event that occurred in the summer of 47

2699
01:54:38,970 --> 01:54:36,100
you would expect to see the files

2700
01:54:40,590 --> 01:54:38,980
vanished from the summer 47 because it

2701
01:54:43,290 --> 01:54:40,600
was a defendant suddenly occurred out of

2702
01:54:46,110 --> 01:54:43,300
nowhere however if you read the GAO

2703
01:54:47,850 --> 01:54:46,120
report carefully you find that the files

2704
01:54:49,650 --> 01:54:47,860
advantage didn't dayton's

2705
01:54:52,620 --> 01:54:49,660
forty-seven onwards and Roswell occurred

2706
01:54:54,630 --> 01:54:52,630
they dated from 46 and my view is that

2707
01:54:56,190 --> 01:54:54,640
if runt Roswell as a random event

2708
01:54:59,730 --> 01:54:56,200
the current something just crashed area

2709
01:55:02,760 --> 01:54:59,740
to the sky and files are generated in 47

2710
01:55:05,010 --> 01:55:02,770
why are the files from 46 or missing as

2711
01:55:07,440 --> 01:55:05,020
well and let are something that

2712
01:55:10,410 --> 01:55:07,450
preempted the crash it's an interesting

2713
01:55:12,840 --> 01:55:10,420
point but what specifically is missing

2714
01:55:15,990 --> 01:55:12,850
that would have answered the question is

2715
01:55:16,380 --> 01:55:16,000
the outgoing messages from the role of a

2716
01:55:20,730 --> 01:55:16,390
person

2717
01:55:21,900 --> 01:55:20,740
yes but they date from 46 not 47 right

2718
01:55:24,060 --> 01:55:21,910
and you're saying that the outgoing

2719
01:55:26,280 --> 01:55:24,070
messages from the base are gone from 46

2720
01:55:29,040 --> 01:55:26,290
as well from 46 - not from this number

2721
01:55:30,840 --> 01:55:29,050
47 they day from a year earlier so we

2722
01:55:32,630 --> 01:55:30,850
have to ask if Roswell was an event that

2723
01:55:36,090 --> 01:55:32,640
occurred quite literally out of the blue

2724
01:55:38,220 --> 01:55:36,100
why why shred files from 12 months

2725
01:55:40,020 --> 01:55:38,230
earlier unless something that was going

2726
01:55:42,480 --> 01:55:40,030
on that was also related to Roswell

2727
01:55:43,530 --> 01:55:42,490
twelve months earlier

2728
01:55:45,780 --> 01:55:43,540
you know what the great thing about

2729
01:55:51,060 --> 01:55:45,790
being the guest hosts guest co-host of

2730
01:55:53,220 --> 01:55:51,070
the para cast is I can do things I want

2731
01:55:54,990 --> 01:55:53,230
to take two minutes and I want to swivel

2732
01:55:56,730 --> 01:55:55,000
on a dime and I want to ask you Paul

2733
01:55:59,070 --> 01:55:56,740
about Jesus in India

2734
01:56:02,340 --> 01:55:59,080
speaking of conspiracies or alternative

2735
01:56:04,080 --> 01:56:02,350
takes on history I want to talk a bit

2736
01:56:06,240 --> 01:56:04,090
more about this but you know give us the

2737
01:56:07,770 --> 01:56:06,250
one or two minutes feel on what Jesus in

2738
01:56:10,110 --> 01:56:07,780
India is about because I think people

2739
01:56:11,310 --> 01:56:10,120
will find it a fascinating film having

2740
01:56:13,380 --> 01:56:11,320
seen it myself

2741
01:56:15,120 --> 01:56:13,390
and maybe up in Canada at least it's not

2742
01:56:16,680 --> 01:56:15,130
as well-known as it should be so go

2743
01:56:18,900 --> 01:56:16,690
ahead talk a bit about Jesus from

2744
01:56:22,800 --> 01:56:18,910
Roswell and flying saucers to Jesus in

2745
01:56:26,430 --> 01:56:22,810
India only on the parapets well the

2746
01:56:29,250 --> 01:56:26,440
short story is that in the New Testament

2747
01:56:32,160 --> 01:56:29,260
it tells of Jesus's life up to age 12

2748
01:56:34,710 --> 01:56:32,170
and then there's what we would call him

2749
01:56:35,970 --> 01:56:34,720
film a jump cut of 18 years where you

2750
01:56:39,870 --> 01:56:35,980
hear nothing about the life of Jesus

2751
01:56:42,240 --> 01:56:39,880
until he's 30 years old and in the East

2752
01:56:44,760 --> 01:56:42,250
in India there is a very ancient

2753
01:56:49,230 --> 01:56:44,770
tradition that during those years that

2754
01:56:52,440 --> 01:56:49,240
Jesus came to India then Saint Thomas

2755
01:56:57,000 --> 01:56:52,450
did go to India after the crucifixion

2756
01:57:00,180 --> 01:56:57,010
and the Vatican john paul ii paid homage

2757
01:57:02,340 --> 01:57:00,190
to him there so the question is are

2758
01:57:05,550 --> 01:57:02,350
these just legends and myths regarding

2759
01:57:07,470 --> 01:57:05,560
jesus's travels in India or is their

2760
01:57:10,320 --> 01:57:07,480
substance to back them up what about all

2761
01:57:12,510 --> 01:57:10,330
the documents that we hear and why is

2762
01:57:17,210 --> 01:57:12,520
there a tomb for mother Mary in Pakistan

2763
01:57:21,090 --> 01:57:19,530
what is the support that this could have

2764
01:57:23,220 --> 01:57:21,100
any connection with the people that are

2765
01:57:25,920 --> 01:57:23,230
written about in the Bible I went to

2766
01:57:27,570 --> 01:57:25,930
India travelled for six weeks all

2767
01:57:30,290 --> 01:57:27,580
throughout the country talking to

2768
01:57:33,570 --> 01:57:30,300
incredibly fascinating people going to

2769
01:57:36,980 --> 01:57:33,580
monasteries and Hindu temples and and

2770
01:57:39,930 --> 01:57:36,990
Catholic museums and collected the

2771
01:57:41,910 --> 01:57:39,940
opinions ideas and research of many many

2772
01:57:45,270 --> 01:57:41,920
people also in universities in the

2773
01:57:48,390 --> 01:57:45,280
United States also people from London so

2774
01:57:49,920 --> 01:57:48,400
Jesus and then the puts together all the

2775
01:57:51,729 --> 01:57:49,930
evidence that I could find about that

2776
01:57:53,169 --> 01:57:51,739
ministry so

2777
01:57:55,180 --> 01:57:53,179
folks if you're interested in biblical

2778
01:57:56,649 --> 01:57:55,190
mysteries and who is actually you know

2779
01:57:59,979 --> 01:57:56,659
what Paul that's the first time I've

2780
01:58:02,350 --> 01:57:59,989
ever heard Jesus's life described in the

2781
01:58:05,859 --> 01:58:02,360
same sense as it the term jump-cut which

2782
01:58:10,470 --> 01:58:05,869
I can definitely relate there's a

2783
01:58:15,870 --> 01:58:12,609
this is what happens of course when you

2784
01:58:19,120 --> 01:58:15,880
get paul davids you had something to say

2785
01:58:22,109 --> 01:58:19,130
yeah yeah that part of the story was

2786
01:58:24,609 --> 01:58:22,119
left on the cutting room floor

2787
01:58:26,140 --> 01:58:24,619
the dialogue was horrible and we just

2788
01:58:28,629 --> 01:58:26,150
didn't the audience wouldn't buy it so

2789
01:58:30,640 --> 01:58:28,639
there yeah there you go listen folks if

2790
01:58:32,020 --> 01:58:30,650
I don't stop it now the rest of this

2791
01:58:35,310 --> 01:58:32,030
episode will be on the cutting room

2792
01:58:37,870 --> 01:58:35,320
floor oh we can't have that you know

2793
01:58:40,569 --> 01:58:37,880
Nicholas Redfern tell us where we can

2794
01:58:42,910 --> 01:58:40,579
find more of the things that you do and

2795
01:58:44,979 --> 01:58:42,920
Nick Redfern com+ information on

2796
01:58:48,040 --> 01:58:44,989
projects enough to think of

2797
01:58:50,410 --> 01:58:48,050
investigating books where obvious peek

2798
01:58:53,259 --> 01:58:50,420
in etc paul davids word we find your

2799
01:58:56,140 --> 01:58:53,269
stuff all my films and books are listed

2800
01:58:58,750 --> 01:58:56,150
at my website paul davids calm but

2801
01:59:01,930 --> 01:58:58,760
especially go to the website Jesus in

2802
01:59:04,239 --> 01:59:01,940
India the movie dot-com and have that

2803
01:59:06,250 --> 01:59:04,249
mystery opened up to you and we hope it

2804
01:59:09,399 --> 01:59:06,260
does make two point six trillion dollars

2805
01:59:12,310 --> 01:59:09,409
just as avatar did Paul Kimball where do

2806
01:59:13,959 --> 01:59:12,320
we find your stuff as the Beatles said

2807
01:59:16,299 --> 01:59:13,969
here there and everywhere but if you

2808
01:59:18,640 --> 01:59:16,309
want to focus in on something red star

2809
01:59:21,129 --> 01:59:18,650
films blog spot.com

2810
01:59:24,009 --> 01:59:21,139
is where most of my UFO and paranormal

2811
01:59:26,109 --> 01:59:24,019
writing can be found and on Canadian

2812
01:59:27,580 --> 01:59:26,119
television ghost cases keep an eye out

2813
01:59:29,979 --> 01:59:27,590
for it we're all over the place up here

2814
01:59:30,640 --> 01:59:29,989
in Canada tracking down ghosts and

2815
01:59:32,830 --> 01:59:30,650
spooky things

2816
01:59:35,049 --> 01:59:32,840
Nicholas Redfern Paul Davidson

2817
01:59:37,209 --> 01:59:35,059
especially Paul Kimball our special

2818
01:59:39,069 --> 01:59:37,219
co-host this week thank you all for

2819
01:59:44,839 --> 01:59:39,079
joining us this week on the power cast

2820
01:59:51,689 --> 01:59:49,290
our standard apparel video is

2821
01:59:54,929 --> 01:59:51,699
copyrighted presentation are making the

2822
01:59:58,010 --> 01:59:54,939
impossible remotely two minutes made for